NOM

Tldr; Your disaffection, at least at first will probably cause your family to double down.

I have now sat out in the foyer of the Temple twice during temple sealings, and have a third one come up just after Christmas. I naively thought that I might get to have some honest discussions about the church and its issues with family members close or extended when I "outed" myself. Actually, its been my experience that most of the family members are doubling down. The nuanced members I thought were showing me some sympathy seem to be turning with renewed energy to the church. If anything my disaffection has only strengthened testimonies.

Here is something I learned from Gilbert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kie6ArWL8Ug

I was able to meet Gilbert, and asked him how he is able to get anything done in Burundi in the face of so much corruption and conflict there. He told me a secret - the secret to getting his wells dug is setting it up so that hutu's and tutsi's work together. The Tutsi's get the charity money, and the Tutsi's pay the Hutu's to do the work. Tutsi's are proud of the money they raised. Hutu's are proud of their work. Both tribes do what they do in order to show off in front of their competitors. If it was just Tutsi's, or if it was just Hutu's then the money would be squandered, and the wells would never be built (people pat one another on the shoulder, just one big boy's club etc.) It had to be one group showing off to the other group in order for work to get done.

Ok - so moral of the story and how it relates - if there is a God - a big IF but let's play the IF game... so if there is a God, and all these different religious beliefs are how God set things up - why not just one religious group? why not just one set of beliefs? one language? one country? one set of scriptures? well... then there would be no one to show off to, no competition to inspire people to work, no incentive to improve and become better...

So... let the Mormons feel so proud about themselves and how strong they are.... and you can also feel so proud about yourself and how smart you are to leave... and everyone can live the best lives they can to prove their viewpoint produces the best sort of people - the most loving, kind, hard-working, reliable - all that good stuff...

Use the comparisons and competitions to better yourself, play the game, donate to charities, volunteer at the homeless shelter, be someone's big brother - go do all the things to show your worth, and then laugh off the motivation behind everyone becoming a better person.

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:54 pm
Use the comparisons and competitions to better yourself, play the game, donate to charities, volunteer at the homeless shelter, be someone's big brother - go do all the things to show your worth, and then laugh off the motivation behind everyone becoming a better person.

Here is a place where I think many exmos fall down. When I left the church one of the things I decided to do in order to show my wife that I wasn't changing was that I out Mormoned the Mormons.

The LDS paradigm is that you really can't be as good of a person outside the church as you are inside the church. This is a lie.

I made sure I "kept all" of the important commandments. This way they have nothing to accuse you with. I was honestly sweet and thoughtful with my wife and kids. I made a good effort to continue our courtship even though we'd been married over thirty years. I made her aware how important she was to me and how highly I thought of her. I was kind to all and willing to help those who truly needed help.

When friends or family came over and the church came up I would either happily and silently bear with the conversation or quietly leave the room to "do something" that I had "forgotten" needed to be attended to.

You have to show them that "Satan" is not in charge of your life and that they look silly trying to insist that he is.......whether you believe in Satan or not. Satanic people do not do good works.

I don't know if you're agnostic now or what, but it wouldn't hurt to be seen as a prayerful person either. Do you still have prayer over your meals at least? For some here this might present difficulties but I know it made a huge difference for my wife to know that I still believed in and looked to God on behalf of myself and my family.

Out Mormon the Mormons.

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:47 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:54 pm
Use the comparisons and competitions to better yourself, play the game, donate to charities, volunteer at the homeless shelter, be someone's big brother - go do all the things to show your worth, and then laugh off the motivation behind everyone becoming a better person.

Here is a place where I think many exmos fall down. When I left the church one of the things I decided to do in order to show my wife that I wasn't changing was that I out Mormoned the Mormons.

The LDS paradigm is that you really can't be as good of a person outside the church as you are inside the church. This is a lie.

I made sure I "kept all" of the important commandments. This way they have nothing to accuse you with. I was honestly sweet and thoughtful with my wife and kids. I made a good effort to continue our courtship even though we'd been married over thirty years. I made her aware how important she was to me and how highly I thought of her. I was kind to all and willing to help those who truly needed help.

When friends or family came over and the church came up I would either happily and silently bear with the conversation or quietly leave the room to "do something" that I had "forgotten" needed to be attended to.

You have to show them that "Satan" is not in charge of your life and that they look silly trying to insist that he is.......whether you believe in Satan or not. Satanic people do not do good works.

I don't know if you're agnostic now or what, but it wouldn't hurt to be seen as a prayerful person either. Do you still have prayer over your meals at least? For some here this might present difficulties but I know it made a huge difference for my wife to know that I still believed in and looked to God on behalf of myself and my family.

Out Mormon the Mormons.

My prayers are now gender-neutral / non-denominational but I pray, I even pray privately when I lose my keys or something, and it still works, I will find my keys lol.

"Loving God and Angel's, please watch over all the struggling ex-mo's this holiday season. Bring them renewed faith in humanity, and connect them within a larger circle of their brothers and sisters. Help them rejoice in newfound beliefs, give their lives increased Meaning and Purpose so that they might be a light and inspiration to others. In the name of Jesus and all holy saints, AMen.

Slave, your experiencing the norm.

People don’t want to know and subconsciously they double down to pretext their fragile testimonies.

My advice is to move forward. Stop sitting in the foyer as a reminder to everyone that your broken. If you have to support family at least wait outside in your car on your own terms. Then show up for pictures or whatever when everyone has exited the building.

Move forward with your hobbies and interests and put living authentically as your priority. This will help you to be happy which in turn is the best way to show everyone that moving forward from the church isn’t doom and gloom as they were brainwashed to think it is.

We have to tear down the fear of leaving and prove it’s no big deal. Hard to do but worth the effort.

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:47 pm I don't know if you're agnostic now or what, but it wouldn't hurt to be seen as a prayerful person either. Do you still have prayer over your meals at least? For some here this might present difficulties but I know it made a huge difference for my wife to know that I still believed in and looked to God on behalf of myself and my family.

Out Mormon the Mormons.

I did end up Agnostic. I still pray and have prayers, and lead scripture study in the evenings, still go to church, still hold a calling (teaching the younglings )

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:32 pm My prayers are now gender-neutral / non-denominational but I pray, I even pray privately when I lose my keys or something, and it still works, I will find my keys lol.

"Loving God and Angel's, please watch over all the struggling ex-mo's this holiday season. Bring them renewed faith in humanity, and connect them within a larger circle of their brothers and sisters. Help them rejoice in newfound beliefs, give their lives increased Meaning and Purpose so that they might be a light and inspiration to others. In the name of Jesus and all holy saints, AMen.

Hmmm, I should strive to be more reverent. When it was my teenagers and a Lil' Caesars pizza, I said "We thank thee that this pizza, that will be delicious, mostly because we are hungry. However, Father, we know its a little ridiculous to ask that it nourish us, so we'll skip that part. Amen."

The teens thought it was hilarious, but I haven't braved that one in front of DW.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:49 pm Slave, your experiencing the norm.

People don’t want to know and subconsciously they double down to pretext their fragile testimonies.

My advice is to move forward. Stop sitting in the foyer as a reminder to everyone that your broken. If you have to support family at least wait outside in your car on your own terms. Then show up for pictures or whatever when everyone has exited the building.

Move forward with your hobbies and interests and put living authentically as your priority. This will help you to be happy which in turn is the best way to show everyone that moving forward from the church isn’t doom and gloom as they were brainwashed to think it is.

We have to tear down the fear of leaving and prove it’s no big deal. Hard to do but worth the effort.

Yes I need to just accept things as they are. I did try to pursue a hobby, I got back into some community theater, where I was cast as a gay character and that caused a pretty big kerfuffle.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:44 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:32 pm My prayers are now gender-neutral / non-denominational but I pray, I even pray privately when I lose my keys or something, and it still works, I will find my keys lol.

"Loving God and Angel's, please watch over all the struggling ex-mo's this holiday season. Bring them renewed faith in humanity, and connect them within a larger circle of their brothers and sisters. Help them rejoice in newfound beliefs, give their lives increased Meaning and Purpose so that they might be a light and inspiration to others. In the name of Jesus and all holy saints, AMen.

Hmmm, I should strive to be more reverent. When it was my teenagers and a Lil' Caesars pizza, I said "We thank thee that this pizza, that will be delicious, mostly because we are hungry. However, Father, we know its a little ridiculous to ask that it nourish us, so we'll skip that part. Amen."

The teens thought it was hilarious, but I haven't braved that one in front of DW.

Haha, I love it.

Funny thing about God - I did hear a voice once, call me insane, but it happened. I was in the shower, thinking about school, if I should go to grad school or not, and if I did would I make it? A voice - clear enough to scare the #@# out of me (I was butt naked in the shower, it was supposed to be one of those private moments!! ... geesh... no freaking privacy...) anyways, a voice says "You'll make it" ... no thee's or thou's, no reverent tone - like some kind of an eye-rolling "come on, stop being a ninny" kind of a comment.... they say the gift of tongues is to speak someone's language - that might travel farther than just words?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:44 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:32 pm My prayers are now gender-neutral / non-denominational but I pray, I even pray privately when I lose my keys or something, and it still works, I will find my keys lol.

"Loving God and Angel's, please watch over all the struggling ex-mo's this holiday season. Bring them renewed faith in humanity, and connect them within a larger circle of their brothers and sisters. Help them rejoice in newfound beliefs, give their lives increased Meaning and Purpose so that they might be a light and inspiration to others. In the name of Jesus and all holy saints, AMen.

Hmmm, I should strive to be more reverent. When it was my teenagers and a Lil' Caesars pizza, I said "We thank thee that this pizza, that will be delicious, mostly because we are hungry. However, Father, we know its a little ridiculous to ask that it nourish us, so we'll skip that part. Amen."

The teens thought it was hilarious, but I haven't braved that one in front of DW.

I have a needle point my mother did of our family’s favorite prayer. Now before going on, I must say that the person who introduced this to my family was the only one to remain fully believing until his death this past summer. But believer or not, my family of origin was always a bit irreverent. But the needle point says, “rub-a-dub dub, Thanks for the grub.” I am currently in the process of framing it for my dining room.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:31 pm I have a needle point my mother did of our family’s favorite prayer. Now before going on, I must say that the person who introduced this to my family was the only one to remain fully believing until his death this past summer. But believer or not, my family of origin was always a bit irreverent. But the needle point says, “rub-a-dub dub, Thanks for the grub.” I am currently in the process of framing it for my dining room.

Love it. See my Observation #4, but you can get away with irreverent humor if you are still a believer. I use to be sort of the humor guy at my family gatherings, now I am afraid to make any of my funny comments because many in the family now see them as "offensive" or irreverent. I used to be able to get away with all that and it was laughed off, no my Mom or others give me a dirty look and its a lead balloon.

I have considered that perhaps I am more edgy not though. Its possible that I don't know where to draw the line or my humor would trend far more negative than before...

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:31 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:44 pm

Angel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:32 pm My prayers are now gender-neutral / non-denominational but I pray, I even pray privately when I lose my keys or something, and it still works, I will find my keys lol.

"Loving God and Angel's, please watch over all the struggling ex-mo's this holiday season. Bring them renewed faith in humanity, and connect them within a larger circle of their brothers and sisters. Help them rejoice in newfound beliefs, give their lives increased Meaning and Purpose so that they might be a light and inspiration to others. In the name of Jesus and all holy saints, AMen.

Hmmm, I should strive to be more reverent. When it was my teenagers and a Lil' Caesars pizza, I said "We thank thee that this pizza, that will be delicious, mostly because we are hungry. However, Father, we know its a little ridiculous to ask that it nourish us, so we'll skip that part. Amen."

The teens thought it was hilarious, but I haven't braved that one in front of DW.

I have a needle point my mother did of our family’s favorite prayer. Now before going on, I must say that the person who introduced this to my family was the only one to remain fully believing until his death this past summer. But believer or not, my family of origin was always a bit irreverent. But the needle point says, “rub-a-dub dub, Thanks for the grub.” I am currently in the process of framing it for my dining room.

Here is another lesson from Gilbert Tuhabonye... Gilbert heard a voice too. He was one of the first people I had talked with outside of Mormonism who had heard a voice. gilbert was a HS student when it happened - the radios and TV went out, phones were down, all communication through the country stopped... in HS he was a popular guy, lots of friends, teachers loved him - I have experienced betrayal trauma too, but not to that extent... these people who were supposed to be his caregivers and instructors, who were supposed to protect him, people who were supposed tobe his friends - they rounded them up, took their clothes, and he is watching fellow classmates get chopped into pieces with machetes by those they thought were friends, those they had grown up with... the throw him in a burning building, buried in body parts, and Gilbert starts praying - starts feeling bad he had ditched church... he did not go to church because the ping-pong tables were free then, and ping pong seemed a more fun thing to do than church. That was the worst thing he could think of for why God would let this happen to him - his worst sin was not going to church on Sundays. ... so he is praying for forgiveness for not going to church, and a voice came, and guided him out of the building, past his now enemies, step by painful step - he was burned and hurt so badly he could hardly walk, and he was taken away from that place to safety... the ones who went faithfully to church, they all died that day... the apostate who preferred playing ping-pong? that is who God saved.

so then you start thinking about Jesus - here is the Christmas story - Jesus did not hang out in church buildings with church people... sermon on the mount - was outside in the hills. It was not the righteous Pharisees and Sadducee who were chosen as friends - the religious people, that is who killed Jehovah - (not Jesus, Romans added the masculine us ending - his name was not Jesus, the church got his name wrong)...

So - why all the different religious groups? Competition and showing off = better people everywhere, but I think that is just the start of it... the end of it, I think, is supposed to be individual testimonies, no relying on arms of flesh, just mono-e-mono ya know? just you and the big guy with no middle man... so you have some community that is perfect enough to take you part of the way, and imperfect enough to push you out and leave you on your own for the rest - for the most sacred part of it.

so Merry Christmas all you rebellious Saints out there - may you find peace and joy surpassing anything any Sadducee or Pharisee would give you behind church walls.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:40 pm

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:31 pm I have a needle point my mother did of our family’s favorite prayer. Now before going on, I must say that the person who introduced this to my family was the only one to remain fully believing until his death this past summer. But believer or not, my family of origin was always a bit irreverent. But the needle point says, “rub-a-dub dub, Thanks for the grub.” I am currently in the process of framing it for my dining room.

Love it. See my Observation #4, but you can get away with irreverent humor if you are still a believer. I use to be sort of the humor guy at my family gatherings, now I am afraid to make any of my funny comments because many in the family now see them as "offensive" or irreverent. I used to be able to get away with all that and it was laughed off, no my Mom or others give me a dirty look and its a lead balloon.

I have considered that perhaps I am more edgy not though. Its possible that I don't know where to draw the line or my humor would trend far more negative than before...

I know my own humor got edgier, and my criticism got angrier after I left the church emotionally. I had always been quite open with DH on the things I didn’t like about the church, the tendency to be Pharisees, talking about Jesus about once in three months, general authority worship. But those same comments hurt my husband after I came out as a nonbeliever, and I caught my tone of voice taking on a bitter edge.

But, as someone married to a clown who never knows when his humor has gone too far, I am afraid that I sympathize with your family on this one.

As one famous comedian said, (Bennet Serf, I know, he is before my time too, but it was a quote my mother liked.) Any way, when asked what is the difference between comedy and tragedy, he said, “comedy is when the fat man rolls down the stairs. Tragedy is when he is dead at the bottom.” Now, me I can’t stand “America’s funniest Home Videos” because it is all about the fat man rolling down the stairs. People get hurt and that is funny? Anyway, what strikes you as funny now is probably closer to the fat man being dead, or seriously injured. So, always run your jokes past your internal “self righteous TBM grandma” to see if a TBM is going to be offended

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:12 pm I came out as a nonbeliever, and I caught my tone of voice taking on a bitter edge.

But, as someone married to a clown who never knows when his humor has gone too far, I am afraid that I sympathize with your family on this one.

Thanks Alas, this is definitely true and a big part of my curbing my humor is my own anxiety that my bitterness will be apparent and offensive.

Now, my family seeing the drop in the level of humor in my tone being interpreted as "loss of the spirit" is another matter altogether.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:33 pm

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:12 pm I came out as a nonbeliever, and I caught my tone of voice taking on a bitter edge.

But, as someone married to a clown who never knows when his humor has gone too far, I am afraid that I sympathize with your family on this one.

Thanks Alas, this is definitely true and a big part of my curbing my humor is my own anxiety that my bitterness will be apparent and offensive.

Now, my family seeing the drop in the level of humor in my tone being interpreted as "loss of the spirit" is another matter altogether.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggg! And if you were your usual joking self, they would say how you have lost the spirit and think everything in life is now a joke. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

This crosses over into the under a microscope observation. They are looking SO hard at how you have changed, that they can’t see that you are the same old you, just trying not to offend them.

It gets better. As they get used to the new you and you get comfortable with the new you, they won’t be looking so close at everything you do, you won’t be as self conscious, and you’ll have a better idea at what kinds of things you can poke fun at.

Part of the humor thing is remember that bad movie about singles wards? Well, it was Mormons poking fun at Mormons, so we could all laugh at the home teacher saying “if you ever need anything, just call” when there are obvious needs glaring at him, and other insider jokes. But if the movie had been made by nonMormons, it would have been offensive. Same jokes, but the difference between laughing with and laughing at.

So, now if you poke fun at Mormons, you are laughing *at* them, rather than laughing *with* them. Maybe make jokes about exMormons?!?

I don’t know the solution. I quit making jokes about the church. Then slowly I started showing him things that made me laugh at loud from NOM, or asking him a believer’s perspective on some of the problems that NOM people bring up. It slowly aught him some NOM issues. But he probably started more liberal of a TBM than your family.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:16 pm It gets better. As they get used to the new you and you get comfortable with the new you, they won’t be looking so close at everything you do, you won’t be as self conscious, and you’ll have a better idea at what kinds of things you can poke fun at.

Yeah I have to remember that while this has been going on for me for 3 years now, the bulk of my family has only been aware of it for about 4 months.

I have a good friend that I do lunch with a couple times a year. He is still a believer but very nuanced/progressive. When we do lunch, we are constantly joking about Mormons and Exmormons, and we both laugh to the point of tears, and and neither of us is offended or walking on eggshells, its great. I would love to be there with my family someday.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:41 am

alas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:16 pm It gets better. As they get used to the new you and you get comfortable with the new you, they won’t be looking so close at everything you do, you won’t be as self conscious, and you’ll have a better idea at what kinds of things you can poke fun at.

Yeah I have to remember that while this has been going on for me for 3 years now, the bulk of my family has only been aware of it for about 4 months.

I have a good friend that I do lunch with a couple times a year. He is still a believer but very nuanced/progressive. When we do lunch, we are constantly joking about Mormons and Exmormons, and we both laugh to the point of tears, and and neither of us is offended or walking on eggshells, its great. I would love to be there with my family someday.

Don’t even hope to reach that point with family, because 90% of them will never make it. I have one friend and when we get together we can joke that way, but her husband who has been exMo, um, since the Mark Hoffman thing, is still angry as heck. She can’t talk to him about any of it, let alone joke. My spouseman is liberal TBM, and I can read him jokes off NOM, but then it is somebody ELSE criticizing the church, not me, so he can accept that as, yeah there is a bit of truth to that. But if I make the joke myself he gets defensive. So, with the first ExMo stuck in the furious stage for 20 plus years, the first and second NOMs, and a touchy but liberal TBM, when we get together as couples, we stay far far away from any Mormon topics.

A believer has to be very secure (stage 5 Fowler) in his beliefs to be able to see both the good and the bad and the ugly and know that he has freely chosen to believe in spite of all the bad and ugly, to be able to joke without getting defensive. Most Mormons stay safely in the concrete fundamental literal (stage 3 Fowler) and they just can’t poke fun at themselves without getting defensive and taking it as a personal insult as if you just told them they are a horrible hypocrite.

ExMos have to be past all the anger or it just is too true and tragic to be funny.

So, even if your loved ones make it to nonbelief, chances they won’t make it to the stage where they can joke about themselves in the way of I used to be like that.

Go over to re-edit exMo and see how much anger there is. Compare the number of posters to us NOMs. That is where the majority of disillusioned Mormons get stuck.