NOM

So tonight my wife and I were talking about a story in the news... the actual story is not important, but here is what is:

1. Person said something very impactful (bad in this case) happened to them
2. A news story found records showing that it did not happen to them
3. Another news story showed a quote from this person from years earlier where they don't mention it happening until they changed the story for a book almost a decade later

So basically... it's the Joseph Smith First Vision story (and priesthood restoration, and polygamy, etc, etc) in a nutshell... Joseph said something happened but the evidence shows it did not happen AND Joseph Smith never mentioned it.

DW and I were talking about this story and I was telling her that I was getting a lot of angry people responding to me (on social media) about this story saying that I was a horrible person for doubting the story.

Then DW was saying that if they never brought it up until years later and the public records say it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.

So then I recapped the responses I was getting, among which were "the story feels right" or "the details don't matter to the greater truth," and she again said it doesn't matter - if it didn't happen, it didn't happen.

After a few minutes of back and forth (friendly since we were in agreement) I said that it drives me nuts because in politics today people do this, but if someone says such an impactful story happened to them but fail to mention it for years and then change the story in order to gain followers, it simply didn't happen... and that there's a reason the evidence matters.

She again repeated that it's horrible that people buy into these things and that she can't believe it's even up for debate.

And I'm left sitting there screaming internally, because that's literally the Mormon church and on some level she has to know it since we've had that EXACT same conversation about Joseph Smith over the last 18 months.

Sorry this was way longer than it should be... that conversation is just one that I know all of us have had with family members, but this was definitely the most irony-filled one I've had yet by a longshot.

Of course, logic and facts don’t apply to religion.

Everything depends on whose ox is getting gored.

Wife notices husband is getting inattentive.

Wife notices husband staying late at work more often.

Wife notices a little less money in bank account than usual.

Wife notices lipstick on husband's collar.

Wife's girlfriend says she saw "George" walking with some young blonde downtown the other day. They looked very "friendly".

Wife angrily says, "I don't want to hear about it...."

When someone has great hope and emotional investment in something or someone and that hope begins to be threatened, they do not want to have to face that pain. Better to pretend it isn't there. Some people call it "being in denial".

I'm a little old fashioned. I call it cowardice......but I do it with sympathy.

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:15 pm When someone has great hope and emotional investment in something or someone and that hope begins to be threatened, they do not want to have to face that pain. Better to pretend it isn't there. Some people call it "being in denial".

I'm a little old fashioned. I call it cowardice......but I do it with sympathy.

Yeah I'm with you. And like I said, I know we all have those conversations with family that don't see the irony, but I guess with her she was the one leading the conversation so it was just so surreal to me.

But she knows the problems but doesn't want to actually look into them, so as you said... it's being in denial as so many are in this church.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:40 pm But she knows the problems but doesn't want to actually look into them, so as you said... it's being in denial as so many are in this church.

I'm right there with you. DW occasionally admits that certain things don't add up, but won't consider or admit ramifications beyond that. Instead, she doubles down on personal BoM study and forced family readings from prescribed lists of scriptures.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:08 pm Of course, logic and facts don’t apply to religion.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

-Galileo Galilei

I think that’s why my DH won’t have those conversations with me anymore - when I’d point out similarities like that or point out inconsistencies he would get defensive and we’d argue. We haven’t argued about the church in a long time but only because we hardly ever discuss it

I have asked him before why he has different standards? Like he’s very against abuse or dishonesty at work or in politics but he kind of glosses over it for church stuff. It all comes back to feeeeelings.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:48 pm I think that’s why my DH won’t have those conversations with me anymore - when I’d point out similarities like that or point out inconsistencies he would get defensive and we’d argue. We haven’t argued about the church in a long time but only because we hardly ever discuss it

I have asked him before why he has different standards? Like he’s very against abuse or dishonesty at work or in politics but he kind of glosses over it for church stuff. It all comes back to feeeeelings.

It took everything in me not to point out that her argument against that story being true would negate the first vision/priesthood restoration/etc, but like you I knew it would cause at least a day or anger so I just let it go and hoped she made the connection on her own.

It's amazing what our brains will do to keep us from making those connections though.

Relevant: Why Do People Believe in Conspiracy Theories?

There's a lot of overlap in modes of thinking. "The powers of darkness are trying to take over the world, and we're God's last line of defense" in particular is very much a conspiracy theory.

One thing I do when I read such articles, to keep myself from developing an us-vs-them attitude, is try to find myself in the described pathology. Have I ever clung to false beliefs to maintain certainty, security or a positive self-image? Absolutely, when I was a believing member. And throughout, about other things. It was shocking how much I didn't know about programming while thinking I was possibly one of the best programmers in the world. I still probably have a few false beliefs left that I think I need to be happy.