NOM

What does the church get right?

Conservative values and family connection?

Which leads to elitism and shunning when someone leaves the tribe?

Self reliance and preparedness?

Which leads to hoarding wheat, collecting canned goods, and counting bullets?

Modesty and sexual purity?

Which leads to covered shoulders, masturbation interviews, and sexual repression?

What does the church get right?

Marketing via heartsell

Which leads to commitment pattern based commitments without informed consent.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am Self reliance and preparedness?

Which leads to people buying a bunch of stuff with money they don't have, on stuff that they don't know how to use, that will not be useful to them when an actual emergency happened and will go bad before it is ever used.


At least in my area that is what happens. That was one of the first things that really made be look critically at the church and opened my eyes. The church's teachings on self reliance were being used more for bragging rights and social standing than actual emergency preparedness. I went inactive within a few months.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:49 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am Self reliance and preparedness?

Which leads to people buying a bunch of stuff with money they don't have, on stuff that they don't know how to use, that will not be useful to them when an actual emergency happened and will go bad before it is ever used.


At least in my area that is what happens. That was one of the first things that really made be look critically at the church and opened my eyes. The church's teachings on self reliance were being used more for bragging rights and social standing than actual emergency preparedness. I went inactive within a few months.

Is your bathtub still filled with water from Y2K?

Or Teton Dam 2.0 preparedness?

I think the church gets some essential things about community right, but they are far from alone in that regard.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:49 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:49 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:25 am Self reliance and preparedness?

Which leads to people buying a bunch of stuff with money they don't have, on stuff that they don't know how to use, that will not be useful to them when an actual emergency happened and will go bad before it is ever used.


At least in my area that is what happens. That was one of the first things that really made be look critically at the church and opened my eyes. The church's teachings on self reliance were being used more for bragging rights and social standing than actual emergency preparedness. I went inactive within a few months.

Is your bathtub still filled with water from Y2K?

Or Teton Dam 2.0 preparedness?

Concerning the Teton Dam, the people on the hills had their food storage. The people on the flats lost theirs. Ricks college was on the hill, so it was very helpful. It was a good thing the Church didn't move it to Idaho Falls in the 1960's like Ernest Wilkenson wanted. Volunteers who came and helped dig out mud were very helpful. So was the Federal money that was paid to everybody who lost homes or property. One of my high school teachers, quit and went into construction because there was so much money to be made rebuilding homes. so the people of Rexburg enjoyed the benefits of both church and state. I was on my mission when the dam broke, and there were a lot of new homes and businesses when I returned to Rexburg a year later. Of course nothing could replace sentimental items lost in the flood. My Grandparents were never the same after they lost their home and all belongings.

I think being prepared, which is probably a quality that rubbed off on the church from huge involvement in the Boy Scouts.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:49 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:49 pm


Which leads to people buying a bunch of stuff with money they don't have, on stuff that they don't know how to use, that will not be useful to them when an actual emergency happened and will go bad before it is ever used.


At least in my area that is what happens. That was one of the first things that really made be look critically at the church and opened my eyes. The church's teachings on self reliance were being used more for bragging rights and social standing than actual emergency preparedness. I went inactive within a few months.

Is your bathtub still filled with water from Y2K?

Or Teton Dam 2.0 preparedness?

Concerning the Teton Dam, the people on the hills had their food storage. The people on the flats lost theirs. Ricks college was on the hill, so it was very helpful. It was a good thing the Church didn't move it to Idaho Falls in the 1960's like Ernest Wilkenson wanted. Volunteers who came and helped dig out mud were very helpful. So was the Federal money that was paid to everybody who lost homes or property. One of my high school teachers, quit and went into construction because there was so much money to be made rebuilding homes. so the people of Rexburg enjoyed the benefits of both church and state. I was on my mission when the dam broke, and there were a lot of new homes and businesses when I returned to Rexburg a year later. Of course nothing could replace sentimental items lost in the flood. My Grandparents were never the same after they lost their home and all belongings.

I remember the Teton Dam far too well. The volunteerism was great.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:05 pm Concerning the Teton Dam, the people on the hills had their food storage. The people on the flats lost theirs. Ricks college was on the hill, so it was very helpful. It was a good thing the Church didn't move it to Idaho Falls in the 1960's like Ernest Wilkenson wanted. Volunteers who came and helped dig out mud were very helpful. So was the Federal money that was paid to everybody who lost homes or property. One of my high school teachers, quit and went into construction because there was so much money to be made rebuilding homes. so the people of Rexburg enjoyed the benefits of both church and state. I was on my mission when the dam broke, and there were a lot of new homes and businesses when I returned to Rexburg a year later. Of course nothing could replace sentimental items lost in the flood. My Grandparents were never the same after they lost their home and all belongings.

That was a defining event for my family. My Grandfather was a farmer out in Hibbard and he didnt talk about it much.


I like the clean living sort of result the church gets out of people. I dont like the methodology or the damage it can do to some.

It does business pretty well.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:16 pm It does business pretty well.

Ha! I was about to say Real Estate or the Stock Market

I think the church does take care of members who have fallen on difficult times to a degree. But somehow they always seem to do it just a little begrudgingly.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:10 pmI think the church gets some essential things about community right, but they are far from alone in that regard.

They do get this right in lots of ways, but I'm not sure it's worth it with the costs it causes to many who have to leave the faith part of that community due to their integrity, and the us vs. them tribalism of the community is definitely not a good thing either.

A sense of community and caring for one another. This, of course, is not an LDS exclusive and the LDS Church does miss the boat in caring and advocating for the most downtrodden portion of the community such as the homeless, but the caring that is extended is very praiseworthy.

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 pm I think the church does take care of members who have fallen on difficult times to a degree. But somehow they always seem to do it just a little begrudgingly.

I'm thinking that begrudging help is due to the Church's political conservatism rather than its theology. Conservatism pits institutional greed against Christian love.

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 pm I think the church does take care of members who have fallen on difficult times to a degree. But somehow they always seem to do it just a little begrudgingly.

I think it is very much dependent on leadership roulette. Some bishops are good, others not so much. And favoritism can play a big factor into it.

In my ward, We had one very popular, very TBM family, when the father got laid off, the church went out of their way to help them. Tons of food from the store house, several months of mortgage payments, and constant reminders in church to keep praying for them in church and in the newsletters.

Me? When I get laid off, it's crickets. Not one offer of help. No food, no money, nothing. Not even a referral to anyone that was hiring or a job fair or even a home teacher visit. The only thing was one week they said mentioned me in a ward council prayer. Sorry, but that did jack squat to help.

Sorry, for the rant, but I still get angry by it.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:50 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 pm I think the church does take care of members who have fallen on difficult times to a degree. But somehow they always seem to do it just a little begrudgingly.

I think it is very much dependent on leadership roulette. Some bishops are good, others not so much. And favoritism can play a big factor into it.

In my ward, We had one very popular, very TBM family, when the father got laid off, the church went out of their way to help them. Tons of food from the store house, several months of mortgage payments, and constant reminders in church to keep praying for them in church and in the newsletters.

Me? When I get laid off, it's crickets. Not one offer of help. No food, no money, nothing. Not even a referral to anyone that was hiring or a job fair or even a home teacher visit. The only thing was one week they said mentioned me in a ward council prayer. Sorry, but that did jack squat to help.

Sorry, for the rant, but I still get angry by it.

Yep. Leader roulette is huge and how one is perceived in the ward.

In my last ward we had an alcoholic Native American who no one wanted to deal with when he ran into trouble, but in an early ward we belonged to, the high priests group leader who was relatively young and poor with about 9 kids, was killed in an accident trying to make a little extra money.

The stake decided to ask the entire stake membership for donations and they got enough to buy his widow and children a home paid in full.
They had been living in a trailer court.

It was a wonderful gesture and I wouldn't begrudge them the gift for a moment.

I just wish the church could be more equitable in their care of hurting members.

I had a friend visiting from Sweden over recently with his wife and kids and they asked about living in the Salt Lake City area. I had a hard time coming up with good things, so much that they started naming them for me. They have a very different perspective though, being relatively neutral about mormonism and distant from the situation. If I'm superficially looking from the outside then here are some possible positives with the church.

- Mormon families seem to tend to be closer. Parents spend more time with their kids, kids are closer to their parents. I think this is encouraged at church on Sunday and in general conference twice a year. (Even if it is discouraged by over-extending responsibilities and speaking out of both sides of their mouths.)

- Mormons seem to have fewer issues with addiction to tobacco and alcohol; a huge societal problem.

- Mormons seem to be less likely to get violent. You can walk down the street at night pretty comfortably in mormon-heavy areas (Passive-aggression prevents real aggression?)

- A basketball court in every building. This is awesome.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:35 pm

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:16 pm It does business pretty well.

Ha! I was about to say Real Estate or the Stock Market

I'll say this for them, they can find and exploit free labor as good as or better than any other gangster on the planet.

Helping those in difficult circumstances.

foolmeonce wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:52 am

Anon70 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:35 pm

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:16 pm It does business pretty well.

Ha! I was about to say Real Estate or the Stock Market

I'll say this for them, they can find and exploit free labor as good as or better than any other gangster on the planet.

When people gush about the church leadership being great businessmen, as if it's evidence that they are men of God, I like to point that it would be pretty hard for anyone to screw up a situation where you have an army of employees that work without wages or benefits, who give you 8 billion dollars every year, tax free and with no questions asked. Just hanging onto that money without investing a dime of it would make your organization fantastically wealthy.

This is going to sound like a negative but that's not my intention.

The church can be really good for people that are insecure in their relationship with god. If you're worried about having god's approval or whether or not you will make it into heaven, you have all kinds of ordinances and check-boxes that can put your mind at ease. Checked the box? You're on the right track.

If you don't have the confidence that you can know god's will directly, there's no shortage of leaders that will tell you what god's will is. It's a paint by numbers faith for people that rely on external authority.

It's not a bad thing. Some people need that and the church excels at meeting those particular needs.