NOM

I've been lurking here for a while and finally decided to join. I've really enjoyed reading your posts and they've helped me a lot.

For a little background on me, I was born and raised in the church, served a mission, married in the temple, and still live in Utah. My family and in-laws are all super active, black and white thinkers. My change in faith started about 3 years ago shortly after I got married. Polygamy had bugged me for years so I decided to do some research hoping everything would make sense. At that point I couldn’t imagine that the church might not be what it claimed to be and I expected to come out of it all with a stronger testimony. But obviously that all led down the rabbit hole and now I’m here with next to none of my former religious beliefs. On good days I kind of believe in God, but I’m not sure. I opened up to my husband about 9 months ago and he was great. It was such a relief to have him be so supportive. We did the mixed faith marriage thing for a while and then he started his own research a few months ago. Now he’s at an angrier stage than me! We moved recently and have attended sacrament meeting a few times, but that’s it. We haven’t engaged with the ward much and after a few times of reaching out to us they’ve pretty much given up.

My husband and I have talked a lot about how we want to move forward and how we want to raise our future kids, but we’re really not sure. I don’t think telling our families would go well. I talked to my mom a little last month, and it was awful. She said I’m being deceived by Satan, I just need to stop reading anti-mormon materials, anything can be proven true/false on the internet etc. Now our relationship feels awkward. At this point I can’t see any value in talking to anyone else about it.

Right now the most appealing option is to attend meetings just often enough that the leadership thinks I’m trying and hopefully I can keep my temple recommend. That way I can attend the occasional wedding, my husband can bless our baby, and we won’t have to out ourselves. Maybe we can reevaluate in 8 years by the time we have to deal with a baptism. To make it through the interview I’d pretty much have to lie about some things, but I don’t think that would bother me. The church has already caused me so much pain, I don’t want to let them take away my family, too. Maybe that makes me a horrible person, but I don’t think I would feel guilty. I see the greater good as keeping my family relationships intact.

Anyway, my one hang up with this is the tithing question. We have been donating 10% of our income to charities or people in need in our community. This is the one thing I could see them calling me out on if I say I’m a full tithe payer. What are your thoughts on this? I’ve heard you can pay tithing anonymously. Is that true? If they try to ask why I haven’t submitted donations to the ward could I just say I pay anonymously and that would be enough?

First - welcome to the group and I'm glad you posted!

To answer your question...

Bluebird32 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:00 pm Anyway, my one hang up with this is the tithing question. We have been donating 10% of our income to charities or people in need in our community. This is the one thing I could see them calling me out on if I say I’m a full tithe payer. What are your thoughts on this? I’ve heard you can pay tithing anonymously. Is that true? If they try to ask why I haven’t submitted donations to the ward could I just say I pay anonymously and that would be enough?

I am 99% sure you do not have to show proof of paying tithing, so if you say you paid 10% you're fine... and you're right that you can pay anonymously. I would absolutely go that route, and donating your tithing to charitable organizations is an absolutely great and honorable thing to do.

Welcome Bluebird!

Tithing probably falls into the leadership roulette category. If you're not attending much, then this may be determined by the Bishop's personal feelings about you and your spouse. There is no formal process of inquiry for tithing settlement, but occasionally I've seen horror stories of Bishops that want to call people out on one thing or another.

Welcome Bluebird!

I'm happy to hear that you and your husband are together on this. There are many people who would be very envious of that fact.

The tithing question will indeed come down to leadership roulette, but you should be good at least most of the time just saying yes and moving on. I think bishops who will look into it any further will be few and far between.

You’ve probably seen the write up on tithing by Waterman: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html

This helped us reevaluate what it means to be a full tithe payer and declare status with a clear conscience and without being called out. Your mileage may vary. But then, I haven’t attended in a very long time, don’t have a current TR, and haven’t been the subject of a rescue mission... yet. My DW attends to fill a calling.

Welcome to NOM. We have all been in your exact position. My anger toward the church is subsiding a bit, but not a lot. I still feel deceived. I have a TBM wife and play the role of good Mormon husband, but only go to church 1-2 times per month. The link to Rock Waterman’s article on tithing has already been provided and it is a gem. Warning, it will trigger some anger, and then some relief. Luckily at this point in your life you haven’t paid the church tithing enough to buy a house.
Please visit with us often. Think of NOM as a group of friends sitting around playing games and having a great discussions. We are your instant friends and understand your struggles.

I’ve paid anonymously for years and I never show them or have been asked for proof. I just say I’m a full tithe payer.

https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/wi ... adquarters

As Anon70 said, you can pay anonymously to SLC directly. The amount paid is not reported to your bishop, only that a payment was made. You could pay $1 and it will show up the same as $15,000. So pay $1 per pay period and then keep paying 10% to local charities that you feel need it.

You will be helping the people who needs help, and you can honestly say that you feel you are a full tithe payer. The bishop is seeing contributions to SLC so he has no need to question.

Sounds like the church still holds its authority and power over you.

Take your power and control back by .....

1. Pay your tithing in pennies.
2. Pay your tithing in pesos.
3. Pay your tithing in Monopoly money.
4. Pay your tithing in coins mentioned in BOM.
5. Pay your tithing in counterfeit bills.
7. Pay your tithing in DGAF’s.

Welcome to NOM!

I told my bishop that I pay my tithing differently. What I meant by that was that I give it to good causes and people in need, rather than to the church. Before I could explain he said, "that's fine. lots of people pay directly to Salt Lake." I decided to leave it at that.

Another bishop, who knows of my disaffection, said he wanted to help me get a recommend anyway. He suggested that when I answer the testimony questions I substitute "faith in and testimony of" with "hope for." Sure, I can always hope there is a restored church with a real prophet.

Welcome to NOM! Your first 2 background sentences apply to a lot of us here, including me. That's rough the way your mom reacted when you talked with her about church stuff, you're feelings and conclusions are valid. My relationships with the TBMs I have told are also awkward, it sucks.

Your plan to do the bare minimum and not rock the boat can work just fine. My uncle left the church as a teenager, then when he was 50 decided to get married in the temple as a way to reconcile with his aging father. They still had wine in the house and stuff, but no one really cared and he was able to mend some relationships. But it will probably also be frustrating. Let us know how it goes.

Bluebird32 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:00 pm To make it through the interview I’d pretty much have to lie about some things, but I don’t think that would bother me. The church has already caused me so much pain, I don’t want to let them take away my family, too. Maybe that makes me a horrible person, but I don’t think I would feel guilty. I see the greater good as keeping my family relationships intact.

I think that makes the church a horrible organization, and you a good person trying to make the best of a bad situation.

As for tithing, I pay (very little) to SLC and declare a full tithe and haven't bumped into any issues.

Thanks everyone for your input and for making me feel welcome. This is super helpful. I think I’ll pay $1 anonymously every now and then. I’m glad that’s an option and I think it’ll making navigating this a little less stressful at least for the time being.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:36 am I told my bishop that I pay my tithing differently. What I meant by that was that I give it to good causes and people in need, rather than to the church. Before I could explain he said, "that's fine. lots of people pay directly to Salt Lake." I decided to leave it at that.

Another bishop, who knows of my disaffection, said he wanted to help me get a recommend anyway. He suggested that when I answer the testimony questions I substitute "faith in and testimony of" with "hope for." Sure, I can always hope there is a restored church with a real prophet.

It’s interesting to see the wide variety of leadership responses. It seems that some bishops are almost looking for an excuse to take your recommend away while others are the exact opposite. I’m not sure what our bishop is like. He seems fairly reasonable, but you can never be sure until you test the waters a little and I don’t want to risk it.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:04 am As Anon70 said, you can pay anonymously to SLC directly. The amount paid is not reported to your bishop, only that a payment was made. You could pay $1 and it will show up the same as $15,000. So pay $1 per pay period and then keep paying 10% to local charities that you feel need it.

You will be helping the people who needs help, and you can honestly say that you feel you are a full tithe payer. The bishop is seeing contributions to SLC so he has no need to question.

That used to be the case. You could set up a direct deposit from your bank directly to Church Headquarters and the bishop would never even see the payment on your record. However, when the church rolled out online tithing payment that changed. All payments to the church are reported on your record. I noticed this last time (a while ago) I got my yearly tax statement from the clerk. In previous years I would get it from church headquarters for those payments. Now they have them reported at the local level with any other donations you may have made.

I believe you have to call and specifically request your donations to be confidential at the ward/online level.

Or just pay zero and tell your bishop you pay through a Charitable Remainder Trust like Mitt Romney!

If he asks, tell him your CPA set it up.

Who Knew? wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:04 am As Anon70 said, you can pay anonymously to SLC directly. The amount paid is not reported to your bishop, only that a payment was made. You could pay $1 and it will show up the same as $15,000. So pay $1 per pay period and then keep paying 10% to local charities that you feel need it.

You will be helping the people who needs help, and you can honestly say that you feel you are a full tithe payer. The bishop is seeing contributions to SLC so he has no need to question.

That used to be the case. You could set up a direct deposit from your bank directly to Church Headquarters and the bishop would never even see the payment on your record. However, when the church rolled out online tithing payment that changed. All payments to the church are reported on your record. I noticed this last time (a while ago) I got my yearly tax statement from the clerk. In previous years I would get it from church headquarters for those payments. Now they have them reported at the local level with any other donations you may have made.

Using the church's "online" tithing payment is different than using your bank's billpay.

I'm not positive, but I still think that billpay can be set up anonymously, while online using the "website" is definitely not anonymous.

If you want to guarantee anonymity, send "the church" an anonymous 10$ Money Order once a year, and call it good.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:59 pm

Who Knew? wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:04 am As Anon70 said, you can pay anonymously to SLC directly. The amount paid is not reported to your bishop, only that a payment was made. You could pay $1 and it will show up the same as $15,000. So pay $1 per pay period and then keep paying 10% to local charities that you feel need it.

You will be helping the people who needs help, and you can honestly say that you feel you are a full tithe payer. The bishop is seeing contributions to SLC so he has no need to question.

That used to be the case. You could set up a direct deposit from your bank directly to Church Headquarters and the bishop would never even see the payment on your record. However, when the church rolled out online tithing payment that changed. All payments to the church are reported on your record. I noticed this last time (a while ago) I got my yearly tax statement from the clerk. In previous years I would get it from church headquarters for those payments. Now they have them reported at the local level with any other donations you may have made.

Using the church's "online" tithing payment is different than using your bank's billpay.

I'm not positive, but I still think that billpay can be set up anonymously, while online using the "website" is definitely not anonymous.

If you want to guarantee anonymity, send "the church" an anonymous 10$ Money Order once a year, and call it good.

Someone mentioned this a few months ago so I called and they said tithing made through bill pay is confidential. I even asked if the ward or stake could ask for mine specifically and they said no.

Yeah, unless something changed since last tithing settlement they still can't see. My BP asked if I pay like he does, in kind (stock) directly to the church. I told him "I pay directly to the church out of every paycheck just like I always have." Which is true, $10 a check to help pay for our share of electricity.

A few years ago I asked my DW to guess how much we had paid in tithing. She guessed $60k. I laughed out loud. I told her it was enough to pay cash for our house and the cabin we never bought. She said "you cant say that." And I said "I just did."

Anyway, it still pisses me off how much we paid. She has since changed her tune and is much more in line with me. We still have callings. I have a TR, she keeps dragging her feet on her well expired TR.

Anyway, rambling now.

You are so lucky to be on the same page and so young. I was late 30's when I crashed and DW followed slowly 5 years later. We now are navigating late teenagers and in the MorCor the consequences of leaving are real.

Take it slow and think/talk through it all before you take any actions or expose yourselves to family etc ..

If you feel you are full tithe payer based your religious beliefs, then you are! They are not supposed to inquire into your finances. Consider whether you feel you have paid a full tithe, and if you have, just answer “yes.” The absolute amount of money you pay not a factor!

John G. wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:47 pm If you feel you are full tithe payer based your religious beliefs, then you are! They are not supposed to inquire into your finances. Consider whether you feel you have paid a full tithe, and if you have, just answer “yes.” The absolute amount of money you pay not a factor!

Some Bishops will not feel the same...

Who Knew? wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:53 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:04 am As Anon70 said, you can pay anonymously to SLC directly. The amount paid is not reported to your bishop, only that a payment was made. You could pay $1 and it will show up the same as $15,000. So pay $1 per pay period and then keep paying 10% to local charities that you feel need it.

You will be helping the people who needs help, and you can honestly say that you feel you are a full tithe payer. The bishop is seeing contributions to SLC so he has no need to question.

That used to be the case. You could set up a direct deposit from your bank directly to Church Headquarters and the bishop would never even see the payment on your record. However, when the church rolled out online tithing payment that changed. All payments to the church are reported on your record. I noticed this last time (a while ago) I got my yearly tax statement from the clerk. In previous years I would get it from church headquarters for those payments. Now they have them reported at the local level with any other donations you may have made.

As insanely dysfunctional that is, sadly it’s not surprising. The church is financially corrupt. I tried telling my family - especially those financially struggling - about how the church mishandles sacred funds, but it backfired. As good cult-members, they shoot the messenger rather than consider the message.