NOM

189 years after the foundation of LD$-Inc. they have finally published a visualization of how the Book of Mormon was actually "translated."

Did Joseph Smith Use A Seer Stone? | Now You Know

I mean... The video is still filled with redirection, lies and gaslighting, but they did finally visualize a tiny bit of truth.

So... Who's headed back to LD$-Inc. meetings with me next weekend?

Did Moses use his brass serpent to defraud people of money for lost tool finding services?

Would have been nice to include the anachronism of "spectacles" for the U&T.

I saw this today... it's so absurd.

They use some gibberish for "Reformed Egyptian" instead of the characters that Joseph wrote down, because the characters that Joseph wrote down are just modified English.

And as FiveFingerMnemonic said, comparing what Moses used to Joseph is absurd because Moses wasn't using the brass serpent with the promise of finding treasure for money, failing at finding it, and then suddenly claiming golden plates with lost scripture on it.

This video is three minutes of absolute trash, and to end with "Now you know" is a really poor appeal to authority.

I want to spend 3-5 minutes jotting down notes on it because it's even worse than the longer video the church released last year trying to explain why it's not really that weird after all, you crazy critics.

It was pretty gutsy of the Church to produce such a video about the usage of seer stones. It will be enough to satisfy both TBMs and the most credulous of potential converts. For all those gentiles, it will serve as laugh producing example of what ninny-heads those Mormons are in believing such stuff. The gentile's laughter will not phase the true believers because they know that God does indeed use righteous rocks to pass along messages to his prophets, for they saw it in a Church video.

Bit of a shame the producers did not talk about how Joseph used his seer stone before his translating. It was interesting how they framed the stone as being a training vehicle for Joseph's future prophecies. Made me think about giving future apostle candidates a stone in their interview and showing the Brethren what they could do with it. Hopefully, none of them would try to throw it.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:27 amWould have been nice to include the anachronism of "spectacles" for the U&T.

Yeah, and they still lie about how the so-called pre-historic Nephite spectacles were used to translate the BoM.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:52 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:27 amWould have been nice to include the anachronism of "spectacles" for the U&T.

Yeah, and they still lie about how the so-called pre-historic Nephite spectacles were used to translate the BoM.

They like to say he used both, and who are you to say otherwise?

That's the greatest part about not being able to prove a negative - you can just say he switched back and forth without any regard for the statements we have.

This reminds me of a poor man's Brother Jake video - instead of 'so you see, no problem' they end with 'now you know.'

all I have to do is check the calendar to know that he didn't use the urim and thummim to translate The Book of Mormon.

After the 116 page mess up the urim and thummim was taken away. It was never returned. The book of Mormon we have today is completely seer stone work.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:52 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:27 amWould have been nice to include the anachronism of "spectacles" for the U&T.

Yeah, and they still lie about how the so-called pre-historic Nephite spectacles were used to translate the BoM.

At least the new video portrayed the Urim and Thummim as a breastplate with two stones rather than spectacles. I suspect that if people keep pressing the Church with details, the Church will continue with the baby-steps approach to being more truthful. That is a slow but desirable process and goal.

This will certainly satisfy many or most believers. The angular art style seems designed more to obscure just how nutty the whole process looks. In addition, Joseph Smith allegedly used the seer stone to find lost things. But seriously, did it ever work? Also, does the seer stone work now if Russell Nelson looked in it? Why not? Why not show an actual picture of the seer stone that the church totally still has.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:02 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:52 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:27 amWould have been nice to include the anachronism of "spectacles" for the U&T.

Yeah, and they still lie about how the so-called pre-historic Nephite spectacles were used to translate the BoM.

They like to say he used both, and who are you to say otherwise?

As dogbite mentions, It's not me who says otherwise, it's history that says otherwise. Nephite spectacles were (supposedly) used to translate the 116 pages, then MORONi (Nephi?) took the spectacles and never returned them. The 116 pages are not part of the BoM.

Of course reality is: It's much more likely that magic Nephite spectacles and golden plates never existed, so there's that...

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:57 pm

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:02 pm They like to say he used both, and who are you to say otherwise?

As dogbite mentions, It's not me who says otherwise, it's history that says otherwise. Nephite spectacles were (supposedly) used to translate the 116 pages, then MORONi (Nephi?) took the spectacles and never returned them. The 116 pages are not part of the BoM.

Of course reality is: It's much more likely that magic Nephite spectacles and golden plates never existed, so there's that...

I was being sarcastic of course...

So on that note I was told a week or so ago that JS *did* get the 'interpreters' back based on these quotes:

Joseph Smith Papers, Times and Seasons, 16 May 1842, Page 786
"Notwithstanding however the great restrictions which he had been laid under, and the solemnity of the covenant which he had made with me, he did shew them to others, and by stratagem they got them away from him, and they never have been recovered nor obtained back again unto this day.
In the mean time while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father’s family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance when behold the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again, (for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings which he lost by transgression

Lucy Mack Smith History, 1844-1845, page 11 (Joseph Smith Papers) says the Urim and Thummin were returned to Joseph to continue translation. " continued said Joseph my suplications to God without cessation that his mercy might again be exercised towards me and on the 22 of september I had the Joy and satisfaction of again receiving the urim and Thummin into my possession and I have commenced translating and Emma writes for me now but the angel said that that the Lord would send some one to write for me and I trust that it will be so. he also said that he was rejoiced when he gave me back the urim and Thummim and that God was pleased with my faithfulness and humility and loved me for my penitence and dilligence in prayer in the which I had performed his duty so well as to receive the urim and Thummin and was able to enter upon the work of translation again— "

Of couse there was no urim and Thummim to begin with - the phrase was never used until I believe 1837, and then was used for anything that Joseph 'used' to translate which muddied the water.

So apologists use these quotes to claim Joseph did get it back, but in reality this is not mentioning the original 'spectacles' or 'interpreters' as before, but could just as easily mean the stone.

They love to live in those muddy waters though.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:31 pmI was being sarcastic of course...

Ah, good... I was pretty sure that YOU of all people would know that history, but... Just in case.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:31 pm Of couse there was no urim and Thummim to begin with - the phrase was never used until I believe 1837, and then was used for anything that Joseph 'used' to translate which muddied the water.

So apologists use these quotes to claim Joseph did get it back, but in reality this is not mentioning the original 'spectacles' or 'interpreters' as before, but could just as easily mean the stone.

They love to live in those muddy waters though.

Yep, at some point they started referring to the Magic Rock™ as the Urim and Thummim and "Urim and Thummim" was used interchangeably for either the magic spectacles, or the Magic Rock™.

How convenient eh?

(Was 1837 when Moroni/Nephi took the spectacles back?)

Then there is this:

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:28 pm This will certainly satisfy many or most believers. The angular art style seems designed more to obscure just how nutty the whole process looks. In addition, Joseph Smith allegedly used the seer stone to find lost things. But seriously, did it ever work? Also, does the seer stone work now if Russell Nelson looked in it? Why not? Why not show an actual picture of the seer stone that the church totally still has.

This makes a lot of sense. Use animation to hide the crazy in plain sight.

We sustain the apostles as seers, but they show no signs of the ability.

The attempt to commonize Joseph as just being another magic rock user founded in the culture that came from Europe, glosses over the fact that all of those people were basically fraudulent fortune tellers with their "crystal balls".

Just trying to make a buck or get a cheap thrill from telling the future. The majority of people considered it a form of the "black arts".

The fact that many people were doing it doesn't make it right or acceptable. Emma's own father saw Joseph for what he was Which led him to deny them his blessing for them to marry. Joseph shows disrespect for Isaac Hale by eloping with his emotionally vulnerable daughter.

Corsair is correct in his evaluation of the stylized graphic illustration quality that tends to simplify the reality of the Mormon crystal gazer burying his face in his hat in order to "restrict the light." This indicates an actual mechanical function taking place with the English words or letters appearing on the stones.
Oliver was hoodwinked when he was told the process wasn't "working" for him because he wasn't concentrating hard enough. Suddenly the process went from one of hard translation to one of loose translation in one fell swoop.

If there's any chance of the Moses serpent story being true (highly unlikely) it is just as likely that Moses was commanding them to bow down and worship the serpent, and later chroniclers changed it to fit the Yahweh-centric retelling of things.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:51 am If there's any chance of the Moses serpent story being true (highly unlikely) it is just as likely that Moses was commanding them to bow down and worship the serpent, and later chroniclers changed it to fit the Yahweh-centric retelling of things.

A lot of the Christian world treats these as stories that don't have to be completely historical. Lots of believing Christians accept the divinity of Jesus without needing the Bible to be inerrant or even completely historical. Perhaps some leader like Moses or Abraham was around in their respective Bronze Age world in the Middle East. The stories may have been a bit embellished in lots of ways. We might be able to draw some good moral principles from their stories, but we don't also need to put a metal snake on a pole when someone gets bitten by a rattlesnake today. No matter how beliving a fundamenatlist might be, nobody would or should do that in the 21st century.

Jesus healing the blind man is interesting for reasons this video won't like. This story with the clay comes from the Book of Mark, a book that is widely understood to have been the first gospel written. Matthew and Luke clearly pulled their material from Mark, but omit the use of clay in the healing of the blind man.

Part of the reason for omitting clay was that this was actually kind of an embarrassing action. Anointing with clay was folk magic. It was something that uneducated peasants would have done. I won't claim that the intellectual elite of First Century Judea was particularly advanced in medical knowledge. They just happened to use slightly less wacky ways to entreat the gods to intervene and heal someone.

Matthew and Luke kept the healing but edited out the the method in support of a good story. Perhaps LDS leadership reluctantly did the same to Joseph's seer stone. But now they are in a world that needs and wants objective details. If they want that seer stone to not be a problem, perhaps they could help things along by simply demonstrating that the seer stone still works.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:55 amIf they want that seer stone to not be a problem, perhaps they could help things along by simply demonstrating that the seer stone still works.

This is a conversation I want to have with a believer who "knows all about" the magic rock.

I'm pretty sure I've typed this out numerous times, but my fluffy brain loves repetition, so: If you truly believe in mormonism, and you truly believe in the magic rock, then the magic rock is literally the most important religious artifact on earth. It is the religious artifact that literally produced "the most correct book on earth," and "the keystone of mormonism." Mormon "leadership" should be parading that magic rock around the world as literal proof of the veracity of mormonism, and the book that the magic rock created. If they could actualy show that the magic rock works, well that would be even more proof of the validity mormonism. (I think we all know why they don't show a demonstration of how the rock works.)

The fact that LD$-Inc. has had the magic rock in their possession since the beginning speaks volumes to me about their "honesty" and "never trying to hide anything."

We can’t logically conclude that the rock should continue to work as claimed by smith and the modern church. Plausible deniability is the foundation of all things Mormon.

The built in escape plan is to simply say the rock was given to Joseph Smith and worked only for his pre-destined role as first prophet of the restoration.

After the translation, the seer stone simply still exists but does not need to function as a working seer stone today. Believers will still believe it’s a seer stone. Non believers will know it’s only a rock.

We don’t know why it doesn’t work for President Russell M Nelson the same way it did for Joseph Smith....

#Apologetics101