NOM

I thought it would be cool if there were a Mormon Rumspringa. Rumspringa is the Amish tradition where youth can go do their own thing, break the rules, and then decide if they want to stay Amish. Wouldn’t that be great for Mormon youth and adults? Take a month long vacation from Mormonism. Go try different coffees and beers.
What would this Mormon Rumspringa be called?
Korihor challenge?
Hold to the plastic rod?
Free Agency Sabbatical?
Thoughts?

I think you'd have a lot more Mormons leaving. If kids could participate in "the world" without guilt, even briefly, I think a lot of them would never come back. Leaving Mormonism would be a lot easier than leaving the Amish community, I think. When an Amish person participates in Rumspringa, I would imagine it's majorly shocking and drives a lot of people back into the fold, with an increased feeling that the world is bad. Mormons are way more similar to mainstream society, so I think a lot of kids would just feel suddenly free, and not want to give it up. Just my guess, though.

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:08 pm I think you'd have a lot more Mormons leaving. If kids could participate in "the world" without guilt, even briefly, I think a lot of them would never come back.

I think that Mr. ThoughtMirror has it right. This is the perfect opportunity to test out what "not having the spirit" actually feels like. The average teenager will discover that this feels "awesome" and decide to take a second month. And then the rest of the year. And then maybe come back when college is done. And then maybe when marriage and kids show up. And then never.

There are several Amish Communities in my area, so I have some experience I can offer.

1. The attrition rate for youth going on Rumspringa is surprisingly high. There are some estimates that it can be 50-66% don't return. That could be local numbers and may not be the same in communities elsewhere in the US. The Amish groups in my areas tend to be a bit more liberal than average. For example, one group allows the use tractors, as long as they do not use inflated tires.
2. Accidents and other bad decisions are very common. Heavy drinking, pregnancy, arrest etc.
3. Many communities have stopped doing, or only allow limited versions of Rumspringa, because of #1 & #2.


As far as Mormonism, I can't see Rumspringa being helpful at all, at least as far as the church goes. It will only lead people out faster and earlier. One of the biggest fears is that Mormons will be friends with "the gays" and will grow sympathetic when they realize the are just normal people, not the evil they are portrayed to be. Rumpsringa would do the same things. IT would show youth that nonmembers are normal people who enjoy life without the church.

2bizE wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:39 am What would this Mormon Rumspringa be called?
Korihor challenge?
Hold to the plastic rod?
Free Agency Sabbatical?
Thoughts?

Normalization.

Plenty of Mormon kids do. I was one of the idiots who didn’t.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:28 am Plenty of Mormon kids do. I was one of the idiots who didn’t.

That hits awfully close to home. I went from my teen years, to a mission, to college, and to temple marriage with a perfect record of church attendance. It's to the benefit of the institutional church that I did not have any conception of Rumspringa.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:41 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:28 am Plenty of Mormon kids do. I was one of the idiots who didn’t.

That hits awfully close to home. I went from my teen years, to a mission, to college, and to temple marriage with a perfect record of church attendance. It's to the benefit of the institutional church that I did not have any conception of Rumspringa.

Seriously... Me too.

When I was young, it was my observation that Mormon Church attendance did not restrain the behavior of most teens. For instance, the son of one of my bishops had a strong craving for smoking dope and he always had some to satisfy that craving. One positive advancement in society for Mormon teens is the availability of abortion and the end of Homes for Unwed Mothers. Mormon girls no longer have to vanish from their homes for half a year.

Why do the Amish do it?

To show their youth the value in the Amish way of life? Does eternal salvation depend on being Amish?

In Mormonism, eternal life depends on living Mormonism!
Is there value in the Mormon way of life?

moksha wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:57 pm When I was young, it was my observation that Mormon Church attendance did not restrain the behavior of most teens. For instance, the son of one of my bishops had a strong craving for smoking dope and he always had some to satisfy that craving. One positive advancement in society for Mormon teens is the availability of abortion and the end of Homes for Unwed Mothers. Mormon girls no longer have to vanish from their homes for half a year.

Are you implying that Mormon girls get abortions?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:09 pmAre you implying that Mormon girls get abortions?

That is strictly between them and their physicians. However, I seem to recall the wry observation that Mormon girls do not use contraception because it would be "like they planned it. Not sure if that is still the case, but I do know that many Utah State Legislators prefer abstinence be taught in high school rather than sex education. It's like they are practicing the zen of Jonathan Livingston Ostrich.

I get the problem with youth and the challenges they could face.
The more I think about it, I think it is the adults that need a Mormon sabbatical. Every 7 years you get to take a year off. Sign me up.

I cannot speak to the Amish- and how they handle the return of the youth once their rumspringa is over, but for Mormon youth, it would be full of shame and judgement. All of the public shaming that comes with being not allowed to take the sacrament, hold a calling, participate... It would probably push more away than bring back because they would have to be willing to endure the shame.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:07 pm Why do the Amish do it?

To show their youth the value in the Amish way of life? Does eternal salvation depend on being Amish?

In Mormonism, eternal life depends on living Mormonism!
Is there value in the Mormon way of life?

I'm not entirely sure what the logic is to Rumspringa. In theory, it is to give youth the opportunity to experiance the outside world and to see if they really want to make the lifelong commitment to the Amish way of life. It's a good idea in theory. However, how they handle things is still a mess.

If a child leaves the Amish lifestyle, they are cast out and shunned from their family. Rumspringa or not, if you choose to leave, you get rejected and ignored for life. So really, what it the point? It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't sort of things. There really is only one acceptable outcome. Go on Rumstringa and come back ready to commit to the lifestyle. So at that point, you are almost better off not going so you don't know what you are missing.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:07 pm Is there value in the Mormon way of life?

This is the real question. One of the excuses for participation is that "it's a good place to raise kids!" In contrast, I'm truly glad that my Lesbian daughter figured it out and effectively left in a timely manner. Her influence has tempered her siblings and cousins.

Does the LDS church promote better families? Does it promote good family formation? I have to credit the church a bit when I look around in my ward and see a bunch of young families with young children. The LDS church growth might be dramatically slowing down, but the next generation is probably going to show up. I have attended Community of Christ a few times and I'm kind of unnerved to see that I am one of the younger people in the congregation. Perhaps there are growing CoC congregations, but none particularly near me.

How would we want our families to operate outside of the LDS church? I have to grant that many aspects of a basic Christian lifestyle make sense and do promote some of the best values of civilization. It's not perfect, but I have not seen the atheists of the world necessarily demonstrate how to reliably produce the next generation of people to keep the world running. Ostensibly we want people that are both kind a rational populating the world. But I largely see that religious people are doing most of that work. Am I looking at this incorrectly?

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:07 am

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:07 pm Is there value in the Mormon way of life?

This is the real question. One of the excuses for participation is that "it's a good place to raise kids!" In contrast, I'm truly glad that my Lesbian daughter figured it out and effectively left in a timely manner. Her influence has tempered her siblings and cousins.

Does the LDS church promote better families? Does it promote good family formation? I have to credit the church a bit when I look around in my ward and see a bunch of young families with young children. The LDS church growth might be dramatically slowing down, but the next generation is probably going to show up. I have attended Community of Christ a few times and I'm kind of unnerved to see that I am one of the younger people in the congregation. Perhaps there are growing CoC congregations, but none particularly near me.

How would we want our families to operate outside of the LDS church? I have to grant that many aspects of a basic Christian lifestyle make sense and do promote some of the best values of civilization. It's not perfect, but I have not seen the atheists of the world necessarily demonstrate how to reliably produce the next generation of people to keep the world running. Ostensibly we want people that are both kind a rational populating the world. But I largely see that religious people are doing most of that work. Am I looking at this incorrectly?

Is there value in the Mormon way of life? I've had to ponder this directly as I have watched my children distance themselves from the Church, because I still have to fight the momentary sense of panic every Mormon parent is conditioned to feel when their children drift away from the Church even though that is exactly what I want them to do. The brainwashing runs deep. Will my children make good choices without the Church? Will they find fulfilling relationships without the Church? Will they all become pimps, hookers, drug addicts, and alcoholics without the Church?

Yes, yes, and no. FEAR is the only thing that makes us think the Church is a safe place from all of these things, fear that was instilled by the Church itself for its own manipulative purposes. When you feel the feelings of fear I momentarily feel, you are being played, and I have to kick the logical part of my brain into high gear so the emotional part of my brain doesn't make me think stupid things in those moments. Your children are no safer in the Church - plenty of kids raised in the Church make bad choices, marry bad partners, and live lives of debauchery and licentiousness. The Church doesn't keep them safe from those things, and it never did, or all Mormon kids would be freakin' angels, which they clearly aren't. And most non-Mormons are no more likely than Mormons to make bad choices, marry bad partners, or turn out to be drunk losers. The idea that the Church makes people more successful and keeps their family members from bad choices is an illusion perpetrated by the Church itself to scare members into sticking with it.

Hell, most Mormon families I know are every bit as messed up as non-Mormon families, it's a total crapshoot, for every member family whose kids turned out perfect I can show you a non-Mormon family whose kids turned out perfect, and for every non-Mormon family whose kids went off the rails I can show you a Mormon family whose kids did the same. Being Mormon doesn't make a bit of difference other than the illusion of safety and the groundless fear that life outside of Mormonism is scary and dangerous.

And I know PLENTY of good, moral, atheists - many of whom are more moral than most Mormons I know, because they choose for themselves to do right and help others, and not because they think someone in the sky is watching them and will reward them when they die. I'd argue that a moral atheist is more moral than a moral religious person because their motives are more pure.

So to answer the original question, is there value in the Mormon way of life? No moreso than most other ways of life. It isn't any safer, and in fact comes with unique dangers, including a lifetime of exploitation and manipulation and oppression and false limitations. It has been said many times, but is nonetheless true - the Church gives you nothing you can't get elsewhere at less personal cost and without as much baggage.

2bizE wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:39 am I thought it would be cool if there were a Mormon Rumspringa. Rumspringa is the Amish tradition where youth can go do their own thing, break the rules, and then decide if they want to stay Amish. Wouldn’t that be great for Mormon youth and adults? Take a month long vacation from Mormonism. Go try different coffees and beers.
What would this Mormon Rumspringa be called?
Korihor challenge?
Hold to the plastic rod?
Free Agency Sabbatical?
Thoughts?

Spring Break? Make it an annual event for everyone!

Or better yet, Rumspringa Reserves, one weekend a month and 2 weeks a year!

A friend of mine described Rumspringa in her area is more like an institute youth conference--a controlled social event that allows networking with other Amish and a chance to find love with less inbreeding. She said the media portrayal is extreme and not accurate, sin is still sin, etc.

Count me another one that behaved myself.