NOM

I was reading a (pretty good) write-up of church issues from a guy that John Dehlin had posted on FB and he mentioned John Bennett which has been something that has always been interesting to me.

As members we are told John C Bennett started the spiritual wifery stuff on his own and was the worst kind of person, and Saints really twists the knife which I was kind of surprised at since they leave a key part of the exchange out. From my write-up about Saints...

From Saints:

“Why are you using my name to carry on your hellish wickedness?” Joseph demanded. “Did I ever teach you anything that was not virtuous?”

“Never!”

“Did you ever know anything unvirtuous or unrighteous in my conduct or actions at any time, either in public or in private?”

“I did not.”

.....Here is what the footnote says for this exchange: "“Affidavit of Hyrum Smith,” Times and Seasons, Aug. 1, 1842, 3:870–71. In Hyrum Smith’s account, Joseph also asked John Bennett, “Have I ever taught you that fornication and adultery was right, or polygamy or any such practices?” to which Bennett answered, “You never did.” Chapter 40 explains that Saints viewed their divinely sanctioned plural marriages as distinct from polygamy."

I only post that because of how dishonest the church is when discussing Bennett, and the reason I say that is because they try so hard to pretend that Bennett wasn't close to Joseph Smith at the very time he was really starting to proposition women left and right. The idea that Bennett thought up spiritual wifery out of nowhere is laughable.

So I was wondering what everyone thought of Bennett. To me I almost think of that anti-drug commercial where the kid says "I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU" when I think of what Bennett was doing.

To me the most obvious thought is that John C Bennett knew what Joseph was up to because he was living with him and was essentially Joseph's #2 for that time, so he probably then thought he could start getting a little action on the side himself using the same reasons.

Rumors had circulated that Bennett had approached several women "in secret insisting that it was not sinful to have a sexual relationship with him as long as they told no one. Calling his practice “spiritual wifery,” John had lied to them, assuring them that Joseph approved of such behavior."

Again... how is that different than what Joseph Smith was doing? He approached women in secret, told them to marry them (and have sex with him) in secret, and that it was not only sanctioned by God but COMMANDED by him. The only difference is that Joseph Smith called it a sealing and John Bennett was labeling it spiritual wifery... both of which have a non-legally binding effect.

Am I missing something?

Spot on.

He didn't get in trouble for doing what he did. He got in trouble for doing it without asking for Joseph's OK (revelation) on who he should do it with first.

And don't get me wrong - I think Bennett was a scumbag and I am sure he was abusing the hell out of this... but so was Joseph.

And not only was Joseph abusing polygamy, but he was using his position as a self-proclaimed prophet to hold exaltation over these women and their families to get them to submit to him.

So which one is really worse?

I read that John C. Bennet also performed abortions---FOR Joseph and others.

You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to “operate for Joseph.” There was a house in Nauvoo, “right across the flat,” about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house.[8]

Sarah Pratt quoted in Wyl, W[ilhem]. [pseud. for Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal]. Mormon Portraits, or the Truth about Mormon Leaders from 1830 to 1886, Joseph Smith the Prophet, His Family and His Friends: A Study Based on Fact and Documents. Salt Lake City: Tribune Printing and Publishing Co., 1886, 59 (see also 128). (Italics in original.)

Did the guy have no sperm?...or were they taking care of things this way?

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:34 pmAm I missing something?

Of course you are! "Plural Marriage" and "Sealings" are completely different than "Polygamy" or "Spiritual Wifery." [Said in a sing-songy, hypnotic, primary/general conference voice.]

And yes that previous sentence was my attempt to be as good at gaslighting as a believer in LDS-Inc.

It doesn't matter how you re-define words: The only difference between Bennett and Smith banging a bunch of females who they weren't married to is that Smith lied and told everyone that some misogynist, @sshole deity "commanded" him to do it.

Bennett and Smith should have had something in common: They should have been roommates in prison.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:20 pm I read that John C. Bennet also performed abortions---FOR Joseph and others.

I can't find enough evidence to show that Bennett was performing abortions for JS outside of what you mentioned, and JS booted Bennett before he was really sexing up the women so I'm not sure on that.

One interesting theory though is that the reason Joseph was marrying other men's wives mostly at first (as opposed to the teens) was so that if they got pregnant no one would really think much of it. Again, there's no DNA evidence that he was fathering kids of polyandrous wives, but it would certainly take away the worry of getting a woman pregnant if she could just pretend it was her actual husband knocking her up instead of Joseph in secret.

I think he would have made a helluva right hand man for Brigham if he had hung around.

I'm pretty sure Bennett was familiar with "spiritual wifery" before he knew of Joseph or came to Nauvoo. The rumors of Joseph's plural marriage doctrines may have even drawn Bennett there. He already had quite a reputation as being a man of ill repute and Joseph was warned about him as he was on his way. Hyrum Smith warned Joseph not to associate himself with Bennett but he didn't listen.

Bennett was attractive to Joseph because he was fairly well educated in things Civic and he drafted the powerful Nauvoo charter and helped to guide it through the Illinois legislature. The charter gave Joseph Cart Blanche power in Nauvoo and allowed him a free hand to run the show, immune to prosecution.

For all intents and purposes, Bennett was most likely a despicable man and no true prophet of God would have associated with him, much less made him his "assistant president" of the church.

But then "birds of a feather....."

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:34 pm

From Saints:

“Why are you using my name to carry on your hellish wickedness?” Joseph demanded. “Did I ever teach you anything that was not virtuous?”

“Never!”

“Did you ever know anything unvirtuous or unrighteous in my conduct or actions at any time, either in public or in private?”

“I did not.”

.....Here is what the footnote says for this exchange: "“Affidavit of Hyrum Smith,” Times and Seasons, Aug. 1, 1842, 3:870–71. In Hyrum Smith’s account, Joseph also asked John Bennett, “Have I ever taught you that fornication and adultery was right, or polygamy or any such practices?” to which Bennett answered, “You never did.” Chapter 40 explains that Saints viewed their divinely sanctioned plural marriages as distinct from polygamy."

Hyrum would have defended Joseph like a white trash mother from Alabama defends her children.

He would do or say anything to protect him no matter how badly he had behaved. I wouldn't take Hyrum's word for the sun coming up tomorrow....

I've seen enough to believe that John C Bennett was a scoundrel.

In this case, however, I think that he only got in trouble because he got caught. Joseph didn't want other people to find out that he was doing the same thing as Dr. Bennett.

I’ve never really looked much into Bennett; however, my late grandfather was a big NOM, before it was a thing. He wore 1 piece garments and drank Buckhorn beer. Anyway, he was also a mason, though I don’t think he had attended masonry for many years. I inherited a number of his Freemasonry books. In a few of the books, he has Bennett’s name written in the side notes...I think. I will need to relook at it to be sure.

From Saints:
Chapter 40 explains that Saints viewed their divinely sanctioned plural marriages as distinct from polygamy*.

*See also "translate," "revelation," "modesty," "Lamanite," "increase," "carefully worded denials," "literal gathering..."

[/quote]

Like Humpty Dumpty, LDS leaders like to believe that words mean what they want them to mean- not what other people, or even a dictionary think those words mean.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:40 pm Like Humpty Dumpty, LDS leaders like to believe that words mean what they want them to mean- not what other people, or even a dictionary think those words mean.

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman." (Spoken with a raspy southern accent....)

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:26 pm Bennett was attractive to Joseph because he was fairly well educated in things Civic and he drafted the powerful Nauvoo charter and helped to guide it through the Illinois legislature. The charter gave Joseph Cart Blanche power in Nauvoo and allowed him a free hand to run the show, immune to prosecution.

Historian Chris Smith also has some insight as to the people Joseph surrounded himself with (from his Sunstone Symposium talk):
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-con ... th2015.mp3

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:57 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:20 pm I read that John C. Bennet also performed abortions---FOR Joseph and others.

I can't find enough evidence to show that Bennett was performing abortions for JS outside of what you mentioned, and JS booted Bennett before he was really sexing up the women so I'm not sure on that.

One interesting theory though is that the reason Joseph was marrying other men's wives mostly at first (as opposed to the teens) was so that if they got pregnant no one would really think much of it. Again, there's no DNA evidence that he was fathering kids of polyandrous wives, but it would certainly take away the worry of getting a woman pregnant if she could just pretend it was her actual husband knocking her up instead of Joseph in secret.

Yep...its historically written about the abortions, but difficult to fix for sure. I know that the Sylvia Session's account is the one the NOM (and I believe more accurate) historians use to show that these plural marriages of JS were sexual. Interesting how some historians want sooooo much to exclude the sexual nature of JS marriages...and affairs (see Fanny Alger--where I personally believe the marriage was an after the fact).

Anyway....Bennett got in trouble because he didn't ask permission first. That is my take anyway. Had he done that, he probably would have gotten what he wanted, at least to some degree. JS was all about using polygamy for control as well as other things.

GAWD....my heart breaks for poor Emma!

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:40 am Yep...its historically written about the abortions, but difficult to fix for sure. I know that the Sylvia Session's account is the one the NOM (and I believe more accurate) historians use to show that these plural marriages of JS were sexual. Interesting how some historians want sooooo much to exclude the sexual nature of JS marriages...and affairs (see Fanny Alger--where I personally believe the marriage was an after the fact).

Anyway....Bennett got in trouble because he didn't ask permission first. That is my take anyway. Had he done that, he probably would have gotten what he wanted, at least to some degree. JS was all about using polygamy for control as well as other things.

GAWD....my heart breaks for poor Emma!

And Sylvia Sessions would be proof that JS was having sex with polyandrous wives, which is why apologists work hard to claim Sylvia was separated from her husband when she got celestial with Joseph.

There is no record of a marriage with Fanny nor did ANYONE speak of it as a marriage until decades later (and decades after JS died I think).

I don't think he would've let Bennett do it if he had asked because at that point he was keeping it to himself, but I wonder if they would've found some middle ground where he gave Bennett a few ladies to keep his secret safe as he started to do with the others.

And yeah - I would kill to get some real talk from Emma at that time... the records are so sparse but it sounds like she lived in hell those final years knowing every time her husband was away he was likely with yet another woman.

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:26 pm I'm pretty sure Bennett was familiar with "spiritual wifery" before he knew of Joseph or came to Nauvoo. The rumors of Joseph's plural marriage doctrines may have even drawn Bennett there. He already had quite a reputation as being a man of ill repute and Joseph was warned about him as he was on his way. Hyrum Smith warned Joseph not to associate himself with Bennett but he didn't listen.

Bennett was attractive to Joseph because he was fairly well educated in things Civic and he drafted the powerful Nauvoo charter and helped to guide it through the Illinois legislature. The charter gave Joseph Cart Blanche power in Nauvoo and allowed him a free hand to run the show, immune to prosecution.

For all intents and purposes, Bennett was most likely a despicable man and no true prophet of God would have associated with him, much less made him his "assistant president" of the church.

But then "birds of a feather....."

I just finished listening to Dehlin's interview of exJW Lloyd Evans. These two remind me of former JW leaders Nathan Knorr (the charasmatic) and Fredrick Franz (the slick deal guy).

The similarities are eerie at times.