John Taylor's (alleged) 1886 revelation on polygamy/everlasting covenant?

[jfro18]

I had never heard about this until listening to Bill Reel and Jim Bennett talk and I finally remembered to look it up.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Looking at the FAIR response even they concede that it looks like Taylor's handwriting, but of course contend that is has nothing to do with polygamy but just the 'new and everlasting covenant' of marriage in general.

1886 Revelation
Given to President John Taylor September 27, 1886
My son John, you have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant how far it is binding upon my people.

Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant, for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.

Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years; and this because of their weakness—because of the perilous times, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not, and as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof; even so, Amen.

The mention of Abraham at the end makes it pretty clear to me that it's about polygamy considering Joseph's (wrong) assertion that Abraham being commanded to take another wife is justification for polygamy... not sealings in general.

Jim Bennett made the argument that it's not real because it was never given to the church when it happened which would make more sense if Joseph Smith didn't do that continually through his life... D&C 132 wasn't even really known by the church until well after his death.

Not a smoking gun or anything, but another example of how clueless and contradictory prophets have always been when it comes to claiming revelation.

[larecherche]

I think it's legitimate, and it is definitely talking about polygamy. It certainly agrees with John Taylor's views on polygamy, and aligns very well with the D&C.

And yes, it was never presented to the church. I don't believe that John Taylor even had an opportunity to present it in General Conference because he was too busy hiding from the law to attend Conference.

Up until Wilford Woodruff ended polygamy, it seems like the word of the church on polygamy was very clear. It was a requirement for exaltation, and would never be taken away.

Of course, it seemed pretty clear from the public revelations that polygamy was an abomination and not practiced in the church up until Brigham Young presented D&C 132 to the church.

[RubinHighlander]

Reminds me of the Woodruff letter in the series Big Love that the polygamist were after because it would vindicate their sticking to the everlasting covenant. If such a letter did exists, it would be no surprise it's locked in the vault with many other things at the COB. At face value you have to scratch your head that TSCC left polygamy in the D&C, like they expected it to come back someday once the Feds backed off.

[alas]

This is the revelation that the fundamentalists use to claim that the main branch of the church apostatized under pressure from the US government. They trace the line of prophets from Joseph Smith...through John Taylor...to Warren Jeffs.

[moksha]

Looking at the FAIR response even they concede that it looks like Taylor's handwriting, but of course contend that is has nothing to do with polygamy but just the 'new and everlasting covenant' of marriage in general.

Wouldn't FAIRsaints have even a better argument by contending that John Taylor made it all up because he was a polygamist?

[jfro18]

This is the revelation that the fundamentalists use to claim that the main branch of the church apostatized under pressure from the US government. They trace the line of prophets from Joseph Smith...through John Taylor...to Warren Jeffs.

And they're not wrong... it's pretty funny reading the FAIR response where they have to concede that the photographs look like his handwriting but then have to destroy the credibility of the 'revelation' and try to keep it as far from polygamy as possible.

And why in the world would Taylor ask God if marriage was an everlasting covenant instead of polygamy? That argument is beyond ridiculous, yet apologists go to it often when trying to explain why prophets kept getting it wrong because they weren't asking God the right questions. Insultingly dumb.

[Palerider]

Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years;......

.....and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters....

Oh, this is about polygamy no doubt.

In the first quote I have sectioned out there is evidence of the big lie the church teaches now about polygamy i.e. that only a few chosen members were allowed to practice it. The truth is, the church wanted everyone to practice it and many of the members were (to their credit) extremely reluctant. I have read accounts of men being called to be Bishop but that they were required to take a plural wife even though they didn't want to, before they could be set apart. So, big lie there.

The second section regarding the Lord being pleased to have men "use their free agency in regard to these matters" destroys Joseph's argument that an angel of God threatened him with a drawn sword if he didn't practice polygamy.

These guys can't have it both ways. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

The more they try to defend this "faith" the more ridiculous they look.

[jfro18]

The second section regarding the Lord being pleased to have men "use their free agency in regard to these matters" destroys Joseph's argument that an angel of God threatened him with a drain sword if he didn't practice polygamy.

These guys can't have it both ways. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

The more they try to defend this "faith" the more ridiculous they look.

This was one area I got so frustrated in listening to the Jim Bennett and Bill Reel talk.

Jim constantly would say "Yeah Joseph screwed that up but because God won't interfere in free agency, he has allowed Joseph and every prophet to get things wrong" on polygamy, banning blacks, LGBT, etc.

And Bill didn't come back with the fact that God took away Joseph's free agency with polygamy, which blows that ENTIRE argument up.

As you said - they can't have it both ways, but they need to have it both ways.

God doesn't interfere with free agency, but God took away Joseph's with polygamy.

Joseph used a tight translation of the Book of Mormon because of the rock in a hat... except when you need to account for anachronisms, Deutero-Isaiah, copying from the Bible.

And so on and so on. It's always about having it both ways because there's no way to get around the church's problems otherwise.

[Hagoth]

This is the revelation that the fundamentalists use to claim that the main branch of the church apostatized under pressure from the US government. They trace the line of prophets from Joseph Smith...through John Taylor...to Warren Jeffs.

And they're not wrong... it's pretty funny reading the FAIR response where they have to concede that the photographs look like his handwriting but then have to destroy the credibility of the 'revelation' and try to keep it as far from polygamy as possible.

Yeah, because it actually does prove that the SLC church is in apostasy. If this letter is legit it is the last thus-saith-the-Lord kind of revelation this church received and it is commanding them to do the opposite of that thing they did.

Yet, at the same time we had a guy running for president not long ago whose family came from a colony in Mexico that was set up for exactly the same reason. If they had listened to what God told John Taylor things would have been a lot different.

Also, that letter should be in the D&C, just like all of the other modern day prophecies spoken prophets by God in the first person.

Apostasy I tells ya'!

[Corsair]

I have a friend who is a current, active believer in his LDS ward, but he does descend from a family that dilligently followed John Taylor's command for some time. Apparently, my friend's multi-great grandfather helped John Taylor hide from the authorities inside a home. Finally, the U.S. Marshall's were closing in and John Taylor had to make a run for it by exiting through a window. The family story is that President Taylor's farewell injunction to this family was to never give up plural marriage.

Luckily for my friend (I suppose), the family did give up plural marriage with most of the church. But cousins do exist living in the usual out-of-the-way places in Utah who still obey that revelation. I have heard from other plural marriage descendents that many in the FLDS hold to a cultural commandment to not let a calendar year go by without having at least one child born to a polygamous family within their congregation. It's a clear sign of apostasy if they let a year go by without such a birth.

[Hagoth]

♪♫ Follow the prophet,♫ follow the prophet,♪ follow the prophet, ♫ don't go astraaaaay. ♪♫