NOM

"At the rate things are changing, you may as well stay in the church!"

I find this argument giving me anxiety. I have been asked "Can't you acknowledge all of what they have already done, and admit its good and that given time it can be a great religion to stay in? What does the church need to do to keep you?"

Here is what I would nail to the door of the temple:

1. Women get the priesthood and serve in leadership positions all the way to the top
2. Openly gay couples and individuals allowed, embraced, married and serving in the church
3. Elimination or complete overhaul of temple services
5. Open the finances
6. Teach over the pulpit tithing only on surplus income, and even then its optional
7. Callings are optional and truly volunteer positions.
8. Fewer meetings and devotionals
9. More focus on teachings of Christ and other great spiritual teachers and stories
10. Admit that the BoM is fiction
11. Make missionary service optional and reduce the time to 1 year
12. Word of Wisdom drops coffee, tea, beer and wine and becomes completely optional
13. Total overhaul of teachings about sex and modesty
14. Stop the claim to be the One and Only true church
15. No more Gas-lighting,
16. Completely open the church archives to the public
17. No More Garments, ever.
18. Officially disavow polygamy and restructure the teaching on marriage in the eternities completely
19. Sell all extracurricular financial schemes and donate the money to worthy causes, feeding the hungry, clothe the nekid, open source software...
20. Drop the articles of faith and encourage personal spirituality
21. Treat all the standard works as "allegorical"
22. No one on one interviews with minors
23. No more probing sexual chastity questions of any kind to anybody
24. More encouragement for professional counseling for social and family issues
25. One hour church, that's uplifting and teaching but searching one's inner self instead of pounding a specific dogma

I suppose that would be a good start. The bottom line is I don't really want any religion anymore. I'm just done with that in my life. But the little changes they are making are so far from what that list has on it, (and it isn't even a complete list), its almost an insult to suggest they should make me happy about the church again.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:02 pmThe bottom line is I don't really want any religion anymore. I'm just done with that in my life.

You and me both. There is nothing they can change at this point that would convince me to resume being an active member of their church. Once it sparked joy and I drew from my participation a sense of joy and being beloved and self-worth that I had never known before. Now, there's just too much water under the bridge, too many ugly memories. And nothing they can change at this point will be enough to convince me that God is behind it all, which was what allowed me to accept it all for so many years. It's a relationship that has run its course. I'd like to see them change from being a toxic influence in so many people's lives, but I can't imagine changes that would persuade me to re-engage on any meaningful level.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:22 pm I'd like to see them change from being a toxic influence in so many people's lives, but I can't imagine changes that would persuade me to re-engage on any meaningful level.

This is true, I have a bit of angst that these continual moves will keep DW and my Kids in indefinitely. Since the toxicity will be balanced by these gradual moves for the better. I need to be more accepting of the "stay in" path.

God to exist!

...and no more burlap walls and funny underwear!

Or funny underwear made from burlap walls!

Here's one I didn't see on your list Slavereeno

• Apologize for almost 200 years of lying and gaslighting

Yeah, I know it seems that the current Q15 Liars is incapable of doing anything close to apologizing. If they did in fact do so, the vast majority of the Q15 Liars also needs to resign and let some new blood reorganize and run the show.

Doesn't matter what changes they make - they can't make the Church what it claims to be. Making a fraudulent, oppressive Church incrementally less oppressive doesn't change in the slightest its fraudulence.

Short answer: nothing. The Church is a fraud - making it nicer shouldn't make me want to stay. It's just making a lie a nicer lie.

Good list Slavereeno. I agree with those who say "nothing".

I appreciated the social aspects of spending time with a tribe, but I hate the core of what mormonism stands for. I could never embrace it again. Worshipping a god, claiming to be the only path to an imagined heaven, claiming feelings show truth, avoiding any topics that might infringe the group worldview, etc, would have to go.

If it were a place to meet up with friends for a couple hours a week and discuss topics and issues I care about, and to plan and carry out service activities that helped real problems, I would be happy to go.

They would stop the nonsense that it's the one "true" church. Of course, you throw that out and I don't know what it would even look like anymore. Who would wear their stupid underwear if they didn't have to? Prohibit family members from weddings? Pay 10% of their income to an institution that won't tell them what they are doing with it? If it isn't "true," than it's nothing other than another social organization. I may as well join Rotary.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:22 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:02 pmThe bottom line is I don't really want any religion anymore. I'm just done with that in my life.

You and me both. There is nothing they can change at this point that would convince me to resume being an active member of their church. Once it sparked joy and I drew from my participation a sense of joy and being beloved and self-worth that I had never known before. Now, there's just too much water under the bridge, too many ugly memories. And nothing they can change at this point will be enough to convince me that God is behind it all, which was what allowed me to accept it all for so many years. It's a relationship that has run its course. I'd like to see them change from being a toxic influence in so many people's lives, but I can't imagine changes that would persuade me to re-engage on any meaningful level.

Yeah, I'm kind of religioned out.

I would nail a list of exactly two items to the door.

• Stop teaching members to have pride on behalf of the church.
• Stop making God out to be a judgmental, obsessive-compulsive, narcissistic asshole.

I don't really care to defend God, because I don't know if one exists or is worth worshipping. The problem is that in Mormonism, for a lot of people, trying to be like God makes them into Pharisees, and learning about God fills them with fear and shame.

But they have unstable pride on behalf of the church to make them feel all better. So their self-esteem takes a hit by learning about Mormonism's God, and then gets fixed up by identifying strongly with the church and exalting it. It's pathological.

These two things motivate and perpetuate all of the worst aspects of the church.

To answer the original question, the only thing that would make me seriously consider returning is if the church made a public move to reconcile with anyone. I would regard that as a sign that the organization is actually repenting of its narcissism.

No matter what they change today under Nelson, the church is still built on a lie.

So with that said, there's nothing that could get me back. Even if they drop the garments, tithing, creepy temple ceremony, etc... it's still based on a lie.

Maybe if they changed their logo to include the words "Joseph Made It Up" I'd respect them, but I'd never join them.

The standard works are not what tbey are purported to be. And there is no mormon church without their validity.

So there is nothing to stay for no matter what they change. All they change is window dressing if there is no truth in tbeir core claims

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:02 pmThe bottom line is I don't really want any religion anymore. I'm just done with that in my life.

It's so much this for me. About 6 months after I stopped going to church, I realized I was never giving anything that much of my time, energy, etc. ever again. There's nothing that I can think of that would convince me to give religion a part in my life again.

I'm 100% fine with being done with religon.

Anything temple related gone. Temples are just nice places to go and sit and think. I think they are beautiful inside.

Better music and people who want to do their calling. Let people pick.

I am really not a church person. We tried a dozen churches in six months, then decided it isn't for us.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:02 pm "At the rate things are changing, you may as well stay in the church!"

"If they have to change so many things, it was obviously wrong in the first place. Why didn't I get out sooner?!"

Once again Slavreeno you nailed it !!!! I think your list is spot on and would keep many people "in" . Not much to add except an optional 2nd hour Bible study . Thanks.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:09 pm Doesn't matter what changes they make - they can't make the Church what it claims to be. Making a fraudulent, oppressive Church incrementally less oppressive doesn't change in the slightest its fraudulence.

Short answer: nothing. The Church is a fraud - making it nicer shouldn't make me want to stay. It's just making a lie a nicer lie.

This is the fundamental issue - the church's whole stated reason for being is based on fiction. If they changed enough to address the fundamental issues, it would cease to be the church in any way that makes it different.

Sounds like a used car salesman pitch.
“What will it take to get you into this new cult, erh religion”

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:09 pm Doesn't matter what changes they make - they can't make the Church what it claims to be. Making a fraudulent, oppressive Church incrementally less oppressive doesn't change in the slightest its fraudulence.

Short answer: nothing. The Church is a fraud - making it nicer shouldn't make me want to stay. It's just making a lie a nicer lie.

Yup, once again NBI you hit the nail on the head.

The church adds no value to my life. The doctrine is fake, the history is fake, the friendships are fake. Waiting on fake, imaginary powers to improve my life is not a good plan; it just doesn't work. I'd rather use that time and energy to take action to improve my life in meaningful ways.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:02 pmThe bottom line is I don't really want any religion anymore. I'm just done with that in my life.

Same. However, if the Lord of Light was actually real, I would sign up to be a red priest.