NOM

The other day while up in the mountains I was using some time to ponder(ize?) and to pray. I do still do that from time to time. After I was done I saw two bald eagles fly overhead and begin to lock legs and do the whole plunging out of the air thing. I thought to myself, if I were more mystical I would be trying to figure out how this was an answer to my prayer. This led me to wonder:

Why does God have to be so distant? Why can't he just come down and talk to me, or anyone else?
In my tbm days I would have said that unclean things cannot stand his presence. Well he has gotten around that requirement in several cases and according to Mormon doctrines the Holy Ghost can sanctify you so that you can stand his presence. It cannot be that reason. Plus he can do whatever the hell/heck he wants. Another answer would be that that would be too easy. Life is a test and it wouldn't be if he just gave us the answers. My argument is that if the point of life is to become like him, knowing he is there with a certainty and interacting with him in a normal way would not not be any sort of hindrance to becoming like him. If I wanted my son to become like me I wouldn't make it difficult to communicate with me.
So what do you think the reason is?
I tend to think this life is so short to him that it probably feels as if he just went to the bathroom and he will be right back. When you do that to a toddler they think you have left for good and they fall apart. But you know that you are coming right back.

Emower wrote:In my tbm days I would have said that unclean things cannot stand his presence. Well he has gotten around that requirement in several cases and according to Mormon doctrines the Holy Ghost can sanctify you so that you can stand his presence.

God's supposed work and glory is to bring us all back to him. If that truly is his number one priority I would expect a little more effort on his part. It seems highly unlikely that he would turn over all of his accountability to some old guys in Salt Lake City who are mostly concerned about excluding people from their secret club.

Emower wrote:Why does God have to be so distant?

I used to ask this same question. Then I realized he was always close. So close in fact, that I found he was right between my ears the whole time. He even speaks to me all the time too.

He says, "Don't worry, be happy!"

Red Ryder wrote:

Emower wrote:Why does God have to be so distant?

I used to ask this same question. Then I realized he was always close. So close in fact, that I found he was right between my ears the whole time. He even speaks to me all the time too.

He says, "Don't worry, be happy!"

Adam Savade wrote:"I have concluded through careful, empirical analysis and much thought that somebody is looking out for me. Keeping track of what I think about things, forgiving me when I do less then I ought, giving me strength to shoot for more than I think I am capable of. I believe they know everything that I do and think and they still love me and I’ve concluded after careful consideration that this person keeping score is me."

Mythbusters host Adam Savage, speaking at the 2012 Reason Rally.

I used to ask this same question. Then I realized he was always close. So close in fact, that I found he was right between my ears the whole time. He even speaks to me all the time too.

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Hagoth wrote:God's supposed work and glory is to bring us all back to him. If that truly is his number one priority I would expect a little more effort on his part. It seems highly unlikely that he would turn over all of his accountability to some old guys in Salt Lake City who are mostly concerned about excluding people from their secret club.

Amen to this.

Hagoth wrote: God's supposed work and glory is to bring us all back to him. If that truly is his number one priority I would expect a little more effort on his part. It seems highly unlikely that he would turn over all of his accountability to some old guys in Salt Lake City who are mostly concerned about excluding people from their secret club.

Totally.

Red Ryder wrote:

Emower wrote:Why does God have to be so distant?

I used to ask this same question. Then I realized he was always close. So close in fact, that I found he was right between my ears the whole time. He even speaks to me all the time too

I get that he is close, I don't argue that. My question is what is everybody's opinion on why isn't he close in a more direct and up front way? Why doesn't he come down, shake his arms like tevye in fiddler on the roof and say "hey guys, here I am, be more like me please?"

I also realize this is an unanswerable question, I am just curious about everyone's opinion.

achilles wrote:

I used to ask this same question. Then I realized he was always close. So close in fact, that I found he was right between my ears the whole time. He even speaks to me all the time too.

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

This is what I've learned too. For a while, it really bothered me to consider that it's all in my head -it's all within me.

But then I realized that it's an undeniable truth - before I realized it even. Just now, I'm more conscious of my consciousness (I AM THAT I AM).

"My question is what is everybody's opinion on why isn't he close in a more direct and up front way?"
He's a creation of man.

"Why doesn't he come down, shake his arms like tevye in fiddler on the roof and say 'hey guys, here I am, be more like me please?' "
He's a creation of man, and imaginary things are not renowned for appearing in reality.

I love this discussion. It seems so much more honest, and humble, than Gospel Doctrine, where people seem to try to convince each other, and themselves about a certain view of reality. Personally I don't have the answer, but I conceive of God as the Source of Love and Truth. Where does Love come from? It's more than just a word, just as the Universe is more than just a word......but I don't want to get off topic. The LDS concept of an anthropo.....anthro ...... human-like of God has long quit making sense to me. So I just go back to my concept of God as the Source of Truth and Love. Why doesn't God visit us? God does. I experience Truth and Love all the time.

Watch for it.

LSOF wrote:"Why doesn't he come down, shake his arms like tevye in fiddler on the roof and say 'hey guys, here I am, be more like me please?' "

What a silly question. Because he only talks to special people who collect lots of money for him.

deacon blues wrote:I love this discussion. It seems so much more honest, and humble, than Gospel Doctrine, where people seem to try to convince each other, and themselves about a certain view of reality. Personally I don't have the answer, but I conceive of God as the Source of Love and Truth. Where does Love come from? It's more than just a word, just as the Universe is more than just a word......but I don't want to get off topic. The LDS concept of an anthropo.....anthro ...... human-like of God has long quit making sense to me. So I just go back to my concept of God as the Source of Truth and Love. Why doesn't God visit us? God does. I experience Truth and Love all the time.

Watch for it.

I really like that - all of it, including "watch for it."

Emower wrote:I get that he is close, I don't argue that. My question is what is everybody's opinion on why isn't he close in a more direct and up front way? Why doesn't he come down, shake his arms like tevye in fiddler on the roof and say "hey guys, here I am, be more like me please?"

Which one are you exactly talking about? HF, Bhudda, Mohammed, Thor, Xenu, 1998 Pam Anderson?

Emower wrote:Why does God have to be so distant? Why can't he just come down and talk to me, or anyone else?
In my tbm days I would have said that unclean things cannot stand his presence. Well he has gotten around that requirement in several cases and according to Mormon doctrines the Holy Ghost can sanctify you so that you can stand his presence. It cannot be that reason. Plus he can do whatever the hell/heck he wants. Another answer would be that that would be too easy. Life is a test and it wouldn't be if he just gave us the answers. My argument is that if the point of life is to become like him, knowing he is there with a certainty and interacting with him in a normal way would not not be any sort of hindrance to becoming like him. If I wanted my son to become like me I wouldn't make it difficult to communicate with me.
So what do you think the reason is?

The spiritual, doctrinal answer seems to be some application of the annoying kind of faith. I rather think that Joseph Smith's "Lectures on Faith" were trying to come up with a cogent solution to the tangible power of faith. But Joseph was actually not very good at systematic theology so he produced a work that ignores 2500 years worth of philosophical thought while simultaneously not solving the problem. Joseph seemed to have faith in the power of faith. But it does not seem to exist like having faith in the enjoyment of a good breakfast.

Faith in yourself results in setting and meeting goals. Faith in Jesus, but assuming you have to do the work results in Christian service. Faith in the Old Testament Jehovah results in a more militant religion. Somehow, having God actually showing up messes up the whole thing as is frequently brought up about Laman and Lemuel seeing an angel or the whole "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign" (Matthew 12:39).

I have not seen a platonic description of faith that systematically answers the questions. It could be argued, post hoc, that this is by design for our spiritual growth that we live in a universe that can be viewed as theistically fine tuned, but seems to lack dependable evidence of theistic intervention. We even have some material measure of faith with the whole "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove" (Matthew 17:20). We don't hold anyone accountable to this material claim by Jesus.

Red Ryder wrote: Which one are you exactly talking about? HF, Bhudda, Mohammed, Thor, Xenu, 1998 Pam Anderson?

Pam Anderson was like a god to me...

Corsair wrote:
I have not seen a platonic description of faith that systematically answers the questions. It could be argued, post hoc, that this is by design for our spiritual growth that we live in a universe that can be viewed as theistically fine tuned, but seems to lack dependable evidence of theistic intervention. We even have some material measure of faith with the whole "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove" (Matthew 17:20). We don't hold anyone accountable to this material claim by Jesus.

Most Mormon explanations seem to be an amalgamation of a bunch post hoc arguments. Some stick, most don't. I like your reference to the annoying kind of faith.

I have been clinging to the anthropomorphic God. It seems cooler to me to envision God as someone I can someday hang out with and he will explain stuff to me.

deacon blues wrote:Why doesn't God visit us? God does. I experience Truth and Love all the time.

Beautiful.

deacon blues wrote:Why doesn't God visit us? God does. I experience Truth and Love all the time.

Watch for it.

This is a good answer. But Mormons around me don't believe it unless you are also maintaining a current temple recommend. Otherwise it's not as good as the TBM theophany.

On Sunday I took my family to tithing settlement which was ironically not what my wife wants to do. She does not enjoy how I again claimed full tithe payer status and actually had a lovely chat with the bishop and my family for 10 minutes. Before we set up the appointment she told me that she does not want to attend tithing settlement like this. I responded that I felt quite at peace with both my level of tithing (zero to the LDS church) and my spirituality.

Does God visit me? I'd say it's as much as I could expect but that's not good enough for the orthodox believers in my life. Mormons cannot get beyond the spiritual differences with apostates or non-Mormons due to the exclusive nature of LDS doctrine. As long as spirituality and communion with God must be regulated and correlated by an office building in Salt Lake City, Mormon will continue to not have sincere spiritual validation with anyone else .