NOM

Mormon culture has countless examples of: "If so and so (my people, a group,or an individual, etc.) are obedient- such and such (a miracle, the construction of a temple, the return of Jesus, an appearance of God, etc.) will happen. Such a prophecy has an almost infallible escape clause, an apology if you will, to answer Deuteronomy 18:22, which says God's prophecies must always be fulfilled. (I heard this a thousand times on my mission.) This escape clause is automatically accompanied by a blame clause, which reminds its audience that if the prophecy isn't fulfilled somebody (but never the prophet! ) is to blame.
It seems to me Joseph Smith would have been made acquainted with conditional prophecy in his money-digging education. Rituals, rites, and spells had to be done correctly, or the treasure would slip away. If this is true a person with a faithful world view might say God used money digging to teach Joseph how to be a prophet, or would they?

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pm It seems to me Joseph Smith would have been made acquainted with conditional prophecy in his money-digging education. Rituals, rites, and spells had to be done correctly, or the treasure would slip away.

Wow, yeah, I never thought of it in that way but you're right. Zion wasn't established, the millennium didn't happen, Jesus didn't return? Well you didn't do it right! Not righteous enough! Zion's camp didn't reclaim the land from the mobs! You didn't do it right, and now we have cholera! Ministering isn't bringing back all the millennials? You didn't do it right! Not motivated and righteous enough! It never ends...

We see little echos of this kind of thinking all the time in non-prophetic Mormon traditions too:

-If your toe sticks out of the water when you get baptized your sins aren't really washed away.

-If the kids gets one word incorrect in the sacrament prayer the atonement of Jesus isn't effective.

-Your prayers are invalid if you don't end them in the name of Jesus Christ.

-When you give a blessing you include something like "depending upon your faith."

They are conditional magic spells that require precise execution. If Harry Potter says the magic words just a little bit wrong there might be horrible consequences.

Yep, the blame game was a well learned device for Joseph but I think he also knew just how far that trick would stretch and when to switch things up.

Sometimes, (hoping no one would be paying attention) he would risk actually contradicting himself as in the two scriptures below.


1 Nephi 3:7

"7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

D&C 124:49

49" Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings."

Or maybe this is a subtle way of Joseph throwing God under the bus????

Regardless, it kind of shows how gullible his audience was. Sometimes it takes a little thinking, some time and a bit of distance to catch someone in a lie. It can be especially difficult when you really want to trust that person...

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pmIf this is true a person with a faithful world view might say God used money digging to teach Joseph how to be a prophet, or would they?

Don't apologists already do that? Claim that the treasure digging and folk magic were akin to a "preparatory priesthood?"

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:05 pm

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pmIf this is true a person with a faithful world view might say God used money digging to teach Joseph how to be a prophet, or would they?

Don't apologists already do that? Claim that the treasure digging and folk magic were akin to a "preparatory priesthood?"

That's Bushman's hypothesis.

God couldn't just give Joseph some lesser tasks that weren't illegal and didn't have ties to witchcraft and pagan magic? Did Abraham and Moses also have to perform pagan magic to warm up to the real thing? It seems to me that Bible prophets were generally defying local custom and NOT joining in the folk magic.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:13 pmDid Abraham and Moses also have to perform pagan magic to warm up to the real thing? It seems to me that Bible prophets were generally defying local custom and NOT joining in the folk magic.

I've heard pretty much the opposite about the Bible. For instance: When Aaron turns is staff into a snake and his snake eats the "pharaoh's sorcerer's" snakes? Aaron was literally proving that his magic was more powerful than the other "sorcerer's" magic.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pm If this is true a person with a faithful world view might say God used money digging to teach Joseph how to be a prophet, or would they?

That particular apologetic has been advanced by Church defenders. Makes you wonder if those saying it may have learned that apologetic from the treasure guardian old Indian and toad spirits. The idea of treasure slipping back into the earth was an established excuse used by past grafters.

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:49 pm That particular apologetic has been advanced by Church defenders. Makes you wonder if those saying it may have learned that apologetic from the treasure guardian old Indian and toad spirits. The idea of treasure slipping back into the earth was an established excuse used by past grafters.

Hey, there's one that neither Nibley nor Muhlstein thought of. We don't have the real Abraham scroll because it slipped into the earth and ran away. It should have turned up in Hor's tomb by now but it took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

right on Hagoth. I remember seminary in the 1970's, we discussed getting the last sealed 2/3 of the Book of Mormon. And the teacher response was, "the people (members, not leaders) aren't righteous enough yet." I never thought of responding, "the prophet needs more practice with the urim and thummin." Of course, I didn't know the church still had the urim and thummim.