NOM

Something that I have recently been ponderizing (TM) on over the last several weeks is the difference between fact, interpretation of those facts, and the conclusions drawn from those interpretations. To provide a non-religious example:

Donald Trump is the president of the United States. This is a fact. We can verify it, and whether or not someone likes Donald Trump and his policies has no bearing on the truthfulness of this fact.

We then have the interpretation of this fact or facts. Donald Trump has done things as president of the United States that I think are good, or that I think are bad. The fact that he has done certain things or not done certain things are facts, but the interpretation we assign to them as individuals determines the value (good or bad) that accrues to these facts.

Finally, we then have the conclusions that these interpretations lead us to. Donald Trump is a good president or Donald Trump is a bad president.

The same thing seems to be happening in this conversation regarding the church and doubt. Yet there are some very real obstacles that occur in these conversations. For example: When we mention a fact - Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. The TBM member many times hears this as an attack on their faith. Yet this statement is simply a fact, with no value (good or bad) assigned to it. If we cannot agree on the facts, or even have a non-emotional conversation about them then the ability to overcome the obstacles in our discourse prevent us from understanding others view points. I have found it increasingly important to have this conversation about fact, interpretation, and conclusion before having any further discussion with TBM's.

There is after all a difference in stating "Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls" and stating, "I can't believe Joseph would be so disgusting as to marry little girls" (Interpretation) or "Joseph was an ephebophile!, look at all the young girls he married!" ( Conclusion).

The biggest step forward we could have in our discussions about these topics is if we could separate the facts from the conclusions and begin to have a meaningful conversation about the facts and then seek to understand why others might have a different interpretation and conclusion regarding those facts.

-Lost

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:The biggest step forward we could have in our discussions about these topics is if we could separate the facts from the conclusions and begin to have a meaningful conversation about the facts and then seek to understand why others might have a different interpretation and conclusion regarding those facts.

This is a great starting point but how do you navigate the conversation when it gets derailed by disagreement between fact and opinion?

I've literally laid out known demonstratable facts that TBM's have claimed were anti-mormon lies, fiction, and fabrications. "That's not true!", they react. That's a lie. Joseph Smith didn't marry teenagers. Well, it says here on LDS.org that he in fact did.

Then they jump to the conclusions the church is twoo!

On the flip side, I've personally got caught up in making conclusions that's it's all false and therefore it's all bad. I have to remind myself that all religions are man made and therefore "not true". Yet an argument can be made with facts that religion is beneficial and provides people with hope, charity, and the desire to serve others. Effectively I have to remind myself that even flowers will grow in a pile of manure.

Thanks for this post lost. I'm going to restart a few conversations modeled after this.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:55 amThis is a great starting point but how do you navigate the conversation when it gets derailed by disagreement between fact and opinion?

I've literally laid out known demonstratable facts that TBM's have claimed were anti-mormon lies, fiction, and fabrications. "That's not true!", they react. That's a lie. Joseph Smith didn't marry teenagers. Well, it says here on LDS.org that he in fact did.

Personally, navigating derailed conversations like that are bit-by-bit getting better. I state the facts, and when someone jumps to the conclusion that facts are an attack on "the church" or anything else, I stop and say: "No, this is not an attack, this is simply a fact."

I'm not sure it helps, but it does stop the conversation from going south, and hopefully, eventually the facts will sink in...

The book "Crucial Conversations" is really interesting and lays out having conversations around shared facts but then trying to understand the other person's side and explaining our own interpretations or "stories" surrounding those facts.

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:05 am There is after all a difference in stating "Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls" and stating, "I can't believe Joseph would be so disgusting as to marry little girls" (Interpretation) or "Joseph was an ephebophile!, look at all the young girls he married!" ( Conclusion).

I had an interesting discussion with a TBM friend of mine. He is relatively well-read on church history. We can both agree on the fact that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl, but he is quick to remind me that we cannot establish as fact whether or not there was a sexual aspect to this relationship. This is where we can no longer agree because there aren't enough facts to continue the conversation. We can agree on the fact that some of the women Joseph Smith married alluded to or said they had sex, but not all of them. So now our opinions about what these marriages mean are based on our bias position.

This type of thing then goes on ad nauseum.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:03 pm I had an interesting discussion with a TBM friend of mine. He is relatively well-read on church history. We can both agree on the fact that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old girl, but he is quick to remind me that we cannot establish as fact whether or not there was a sexual aspect to this relationship. This is where we can no longer agree because there aren't enough facts to continue the conversation. We can agree on the fact that some of the women Joseph Smith married alluded to or said they had sex, but not all of them. So now our opinions about what these marriages mean are based on our bias position.

It might be pointless to push on this item with a believer. However it's worth asking, Would it have been wrong for Joseph to have sex with Helen Mar Kimball? If not, why didn't Joseph have sex with her? Doesn't D&C 132:63 command Joseph to multiply and replenish the earth with the doctrine of plural marriage?

If it would have been wrong for Joseph to have sex with Helen Mar Kimball, why did every other LDS leader have sex with their plural wives?

Was it wrong for Brigham Young (age 45) to marry Lucy Bigelow (age 16)? They had three children together.

Was it wrong for John Taylor (age 78) to marry Josephine Elizabeth Roueche (age 26) in 1886?

Was it wrong for Wilford Woodruff (age 45) to marry his seventh wife, Emma Smoot Smith (age 15)? They had eight children together.

Was it wrong for Lorenzo Snow (age 57) to have married Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen (age 15)? They had five children together.

Helen Mar Kimball had 11 children. Who is the father they are they sealed to? After Joseph Smith was lynched, Sister Kimball married Horace Whitney and had 11 children with him including apostle Orson F. Whitney. Who is Elder Whitney's father, sealed with eternal covenants in God's Holy Temple?

This is not some academic or esoteric question. Breaking sealings is serious business today and families are affected. The institutional church can claim that we work out our own salvation based on our individual choices and covenants. But the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom is reserved for sealed couples. Granted, Horace Whitney was sealed to other women, but does Elder Orson F. Whitney consider his priesthood connection to Joseph Smith, or to Horace Whitney, the man who actually sired and raised him?

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:28 pm This is not some academic or esoteric question. Breaking sealings is serious business today and families are affected. The institutional church can claim that we work out our own salvation based on our individual choices and covenants. But the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom is reserved for sealed couples. Granted, Horace Whitney was sealed to other women, but does Elder Orson F. Whitney consider his priesthood connection to Joseph Smith, or to Horace Whitney, the man who actually sired and raised him?

This is the thing that to me is so much more damaging than Joseph sexing his extra wives. When he was sealed to these young women (and those already married) he literally stole these women's eternity with people they actually loved.

It's such a harmful doctrine and the fact that Joseph himself abused it shows what a complete mess it is from the get go. And also explains why they church never teaches this part of polygamy, because it's abhorrent in a way well beyond just sex.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:28 pmIt might be pointless to push on this item with a believer.

Yes, true, thus far its been very pointless.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:28 pm However it's worth asking, Would it have been wrong for Joseph to have sex with Helen Mar Kimball? If not, why didn't Joseph have sex with her? Doesn't D&C 132:63 command Joseph to multiply and replenish the earth with the doctrine of plural marriage?

If it would have been wrong for Joseph to have sex with Helen Mar Kimball, why did every other LDS leader have sex with their plural wives?

Was it wrong for Brigham Young (age 45) to marry Lucy Bigelow (age 16)? They had three children together.

Was it wrong for John Taylor (age 78) to marry Josephine Elizabeth Roueche (age 26) in 1886?

Was it wrong for Wilford Woodruff (age 45) to marry his seventh wife, Emma Smoot Smith (age 15)? They had eight children together.

Was it wrong for Lorenzo Snow (age 57) to have married Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen (age 15)? They had five children together.

Helen Mar Kimball had 11 children. Who is the father they are they sealed to? After Joseph Smith was lynched, Sister Kimball married Horace Whitney and had 11 children with him including apostle Orson F. Whitney. Who is Elder Whitney's father, sealed with eternal covenants in God's Holy Temple?

I like how this is structured, much better to ask questions then to try to just rapid fire facts at my TBMs. There have been a couple of times, where I have done a better job of asking questions rather than spewing facts that nobody listens to.