NOM

So my buddy sent this. It looks like a Mormon reboot using the 6th Great Grandson of Joseph Smith Jr. as the prophet. I guess Moroni came back with "Raphael" and gave him the sealed portion to reveal to the world.

https://thecauseofzion.org/

When I see this kind of stuff I am so glad I am done with religion.

Wow, this story is like a tour through mental illness and mass delusion. Which is about what the early church history seems like now in retrospect...

My "wow" realization: It seems I need a magic rock and/or hat to translate that website. I literally learned nothing about" The cause of Zion" by visiting their site. What a complete waste of bits and bytes.

I guess their "seer" has posted some photos of the "golden plates"

https://thecauseofzion.org/wp-content/u ... ters-1.pdf

They are starting a new church, with founding members from the RLDS side and the Brigimaite Side. This is bats**t crazy squared.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:59 pm My "wow" realization: It seems I need a magic rock and/or hat to translate that website. I literally learned nothing about" The cause of Zion" by visiting their site. What a complete waste of bits and bytes.

Yea, took me awhile to make sense of that site. This seems close to an 'about', his personal story:

https://thecauseofzion.org/mauricios-sp ... oricity-2/

His many references to Mark Hoffman are intriguing.

And in this drama, the role of Sydney Rigdon will be played by:

http://jfsm.org/about.html

(great-grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr, with a congregation or group of followers ready to join?)

But in this version, Sydney (aka JFSmith) gets his wish, and becomes president of the new church. But not prophet.

wish I could send this to my parents and ask them:

• Will you read the sealed portion, have faith that it is the revealed word of God and then pray to find out it is indeed true?
• Will you immerse yourself in it, become socialized to it and culturally identify with it, testify of it, and then pray to see if it is true with real intent?
• What if you feel all warm and fuzzy when you pray? What if you don't, are you hiding a sin, something your not telling me?
• What if it testifies of Jesus Christ?
• What if others read and are deeply moved and emotional about it? Would you have a desire to join with them?
• What if the only way to get to the Top Heaven is to believe and pay to this new church?
• How are you progressing on your new testimony?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:08 pm I guess their "seer" has posted some photos of the "golden plates"

https://thecauseofzion.org/wp-content/u ... ters-1.pdf

They are starting a new church, with founding members from the RLDS side and the Brigimaite Side. This is bats**t crazy squared.

I just skimmed this, so I may be misunderstanding, but they're saying that Hoffman had access to a genuine transcript that was better than the Anthon "caractors" transcript? Why didn't he just sell that to the church.

Do they say anything about where the plates are now? Can I heft them? I have a feeling there's not much more to see than what is shown in the photos.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:45 am Do they say anything about where the plates are now? Can I heft them? I have a feeling there's not much more to see than what is shown in the photos.

They are supposedly being "translated" by their "seer" a guy from Brazil named Mauricio A Berger, who has to keep hiding them to keep them safe. The "angel" said he can't take a lot of photos or have the plates inspected because "its a matter of faith" not proof.

Its an obvious fake, but what interests me is how members of the church will respond to this. First, it plays into the narrative started by Joseph Smith way back when, but now benefits from all that we have learned since. So to me, who is completely mentally out, this is an easy one to dismiss. It fits into that same category of all religions in my mind. A lot of this depends on what his translation ends up looking like, and this could all blow up, (in the information age, maybe they can't pull it off) but I hope his movement is wildly successful.

So much of this movement mimics the original Mormon history, so here is the catch 22 for TBMs: They can claim its all fake, but now a bunch of their "proof" and argument support ends up sounding just like TCoZ. Because the following now applies to this new brand of mormonism:

"Mauricio Berger had visions from an early age"
"Mauricio Berger has 3 witness and 8 Witnesses just like Joseph Smith, there is no way he could get that many people to corroborate!"
"Mauricio is from Brazil and does not have extensive formal education, how could he have written the sealed portion"
"The mistakes in the sealed portion are just the foibles of men, some of the mistakes are just part of the translation process"
"Its not about proof its about faith"
"The sealed portion testifies of christ"
"Some people have prayed about Mauricio Berger and Joseph F. Smith and received an answer by "the spirit""

And probably a few dozen more, that they can't now apply in one place without compromising the other! So either its real and they have to leave LDS Inc. or its fake and they have to abandon a bunch of their "evidence"

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:12 pm "Mauricio Berger had visions from an early age"
"Mauricio Berger has 3 witness and 8 Witnesses just like Joseph Smith, there is no way he could get that many people to corroborate!"
"Mauricio is from Brazil and does not have extensive formal education, how could he have written the sealed portion"
"The mistakes in the sealed portion are just the foibles of men, some of the mistakes are just part of the translation process"
"Its not about proof its about faith"
"The sealed portion testifies of christ"
"Some people have prayed about Mauricio Berger and Joseph F. Smith and received an answer by "the spirit""

This is only "evidence" by a very loose definition of "evidence". It's all very circular within the tiny confines of their constructed line of reasoning. But, it would fail the outsider's test of faith. In other words, if you did not already find Joseph Smith to be credible, why should this Brazilian guy be even more credible? It should acually reduce the belief that we might have in Joseph Smith because clearly we have another guy who can also do the same amazing feats of prophethood.

Seriously, if some guy wants to claim he is a prophet, I am more inclined to believe him if he can follow the "call fire from the sky" protocol in the Elijah and the Priests of Baal story in 1 Kings 18. Having visions does not impress me without some clear prophetic power. Lacking a formal education is impossible to prove and is already claimed by a bunch of other people I also don't believe. Additional witnesses sound fairly unimpressive since I can find millions of people who will already testify that Pope Francis is the true representative of Christ on the earth. I already heard a dozen people give a testimony of Christ on Fast Sunday this month. It definitely needs to be about proof, because faith alone put Bernie Madoff in prison and left his defrauded victims a lot poorer.

Lastly, I'm already comfortable about my relationship with God.

I just skimmed this as well.

Do they say what language this is supposed to be? Are we finally seeing "reformed Egyptian" for the first time???

I so wish Joseph and Oliver we're here today. We could have this thing translated quicker than you could get your hat off and look inside.

I guess Nemelka's wasn't enough sealed plates

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:37 pm This is only "evidence" by a very loose definition of "evidence". It's all very circular within the tiny confines of their constructed line of reasoning. But, it would fail the outsider's test of faith. (...) It should acually reduce the belief that we might have in Joseph Smith because clearly we have another guy who can also do the same amazing feats of prophethood.

This exactly! TBMs, when confronted with this are forced to either accept it, or deny it as a fraud and now admit that Joseph Smith could have also have been a fraud by the same assessment.

I know most TBMs won't accept it, but I will be happy to point out that this dude got 11 witnesses also and ask them to explain how, and why one set is more credible than another.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:37 pmIn other words, if you did not already find Joseph Smith to be credible, why should this Brazilian guy be even more credible?

Right as a non believer, for me this is a no brainier, I don't believe in the original Joseph Smith so this is just more of the same. So I can just sit back and pop some corn and watch the cog dis grind away as TBMs explain this away and in the process destroy most of their so called "evidence."

I wouldn't really do this, but it would be super fun to toss this one out there at the next family party and watch the fireworks, and just ask a few pointed questions here and there to stoke the fire. The hard part would be keeping a straight face.

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:50 pm I just skimmed this as well.

Do they say what language this is supposed to be? Are we finally seeing "reformed Egyptian" for the first time???

I so wish Joseph and Oliver we're here today. We could have this thing translated quicker than you could get your hat off and look inside.

Yeah I think its "reformed Egyptian" much of which is copied from the Anthon stuff, nothing very original as far as I can tell.

Here's another document (that I haven't actually read) that has pictures of the entire set of plates, the Sword of Laban (actually 3 versions of it), one of the interpreter stones, and photographs of angels taken by Maricio Berger (aka Joseph Smith 2.0).

This document appears to be a debunking by a publisher of Church of Christ Temple Lot literature.

http://restorationbookstore.org/Brazil_ ... d_v2-4.pdf

If you have to ask "why would anyone go to all the trouble to fake something like the LDS origin stories?" just ask Bro. Berger.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:05 pm If you have to ask "why would anyone go to all the trouble to fake something like the LDS origin stories?" just ask Bro. Berger.

Here's the answer I found on their site:

Joseph has a message and a plan. The time of tribulation is near and Zion’s redemption is now. You, along with fellow believers, can began preparing for it today.

Taking this message and promoting this plan takes money. We depend on your contributions. They will help send Joseph where he is needed. All contributions are tax deductible. Please send your contributions to The Joseph Smith Support Fund, PO Box 774, Blue Springs, Mo 64013. Thank you for your support.

Anyone want to join me to infiltrate this organization and work our way up to a leadership position where we can have sex with the congregation?

Who's in?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:05 pm This document appears to be a debunking by a publisher of Church of Christ Temple Lot literature.

http://restorationbookstore.org/Brazil_ ... d_v2-4.pdf

If you have to ask "why would anyone go to all the trouble to fake something like the LDS origin stories?" just ask Bro. Berger.

Wow that's even better! All they need is their own university and team of apologists to defend this piece of work.

Some examples of CoZ apologetics that mirror quality Mormon apologetics could look like:
"Mark Hoffman got the characters for his forgery from the original characters that were transcribed by Joseph Smith so it makes sense that they would look the same"

"The photos of the sword of Laban were not taken professionally, and not meant as "proof" as the Lard requires faith, so some of the details are obscure in a few of the photos"

"The bands of gold removed from the sealed portion are made of a gold alloy. Gold rhymes with cold and so in the cold there may be some shrinkage. That's to be expected and consistent with the testimony."

"You're a poo poo head!"

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:18 pm Anyone want to join me to infiltrate this organization and work our way up to a leadership position where we can have sex with the congregation?

Who's in?

Can they be other peoples spouses already? We could send some on missions and then uhh, take "Care" of their spouse while they are away.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:05 pmone of the interpreter stones

So Mauricio is using magic rocks to translate? How 'bout magic hats?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:05 pmand photographs of angels

Angels? Really?

Dammit, now I'm going to have to scan through that stupid document. Can't... Not... Look away...