NOM

At my ward yesterday we had a couple speak who had just returned from a mission to the Harmony, Pennsylvania Church site. I was fascinated to hear the new narrative about the Book of Mormon translation. In a nutshell: God guided Joseph to find a seer stone. He was able to develop his spiritual gift helping people find lost items, he used the stone and Nephite interpreters interchangeably as he translated the Book of Mormon. I was amazed that the speaker said that the only time we ever know of Joseph using the plates was to copy the characters. He said that someone had asked Elder Uchdorf (when he was visiting the site with a grandson) why the plates were needed if they weren't used. His response was that Joseph needed concrete evidence of the reality of the work.

I applaud the Church trying to be more accurate in the historical narrative (acknowledging the seer stone, the plates weren't used, etc.). I also recognize that there needs to be some spin to make this faith promoting since it is a Church site. I think using the Nephite interpreters/seer stone interchangeably is problematic because there is no history to support this. We only have a few instances where Joseph said anything about the interpreters and this position is a transitional one to the seer stone narrative. The rest of the new narrative begs tough questions, which is why we avoided it at all costs before. If Joseph was a talented seer, what lost items did he find? Why did people go through great trouble to engrave the plates, keep them safe, etc. if it was just a prop for Joseph to see it was real? Also, what about the 1826 trial and that using stones to find treasure was a common scam at the time?

The only instances I have read about where Joseph found items were: 1. Finding Martin Harris' toothpick in the hay in the barn; 2. Finding the tail feather while digging for a chest; 3. Describing the buildings and farm of Josiah Stowell; and 4. "Reading" the book with his back to it while looking at the stone.

All of these would be easily done with some prep work beforehand and were slight of hand tricks to prove credibility. Are there any other instances where he used the stone successfully or found anything?

felixfabulous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:06 amWhy did people go through great trouble to engrave the plates, keep them safe, etc. if it was just a prop for Joseph to see it was real?

Absolutely. If this is the case, why didn't Joseph need a prop for the D&C "revelations" that he received through the magic rock?

This stuff drives me absolutely crazy.

It's like a reasonable thinking person has to accept XYZ happened so that PDQ could be true in all instances where ABC was greater than 123.

Then, LMNOP is true because Joseph Smith said so and he was super uneducated and couldn't possibly be making anything up.

The interesting part in all of this is the youth can see through it and aren't afraid to google.

felixfabulous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:06 am He said that someone had asked Elder Uchdorf (when he was visiting the site with a grandson) why the plates were needed if they weren't used. His response was that Joseph needed concrete evidence of the reality of the work.

...because seeing God, Jesus and other angels wasn't enough for Joseph to accept the reality of the work. He needed buried treasures to know it was real so God commanded the BOM prophets to painstakingly engrave metal plates and lug them around for decades just so one day Joseph would believe it was real but never really translate any of the writings on the plates.

Makes perfect sense.

As regarding finding lost stuff for other people:

It isn't hard to find your neighbor's best loved shovel if you slipped over to his workshed the night before and hid it somewhere else.

You would be amazed at what your little rock can do and your neighbor would reluctantly (and kind of suspiciously) give you your two bit fee for finding his implement.

I think this is one of the reasons some of the Smith family's neighbors held them in low regard. They suspected but couldn't prove it was a ruse.

This is why Joseph's arrest for glass looking is so important. It came after his supposed 1st Vision and it proved he had a tendency towards fraudulent behavior.

Just imagine Paul acting this way after his encounter with the Savior on the road to Damascus. Or Moses flirting with false god's after his encounter with God at the burning bush.

Suddenly all of the apologist explanations (excuses) for Joseph's behavior begin to look just as they are......pathetic.

felixfabulous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:06 am The only instances I have read about where Joseph found items were: 1. Finding Martin Harris' toothpick in the hay in the barn; 2. Finding the tail feather while digging for a chest; 3. Describing the buildings and farm of Josiah Stowell; and 4. "Reading" the book with his back to it while looking at the stone.

All of these would be easily done with some prep work beforehand and were slight of hand tricks to prove credibility.

And they were standard cons that flim-flam men used to convince people that they had special powers. But, just like all those flim-flam men, the only treasure Joseph's power ever produced was a trickle of money from the pockets of his clients into the pockets of his family.

felixfabulous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:06 am Are there any other instances where he used the stone successfully or found anything?

Well, he did find that lost document that John wrote, but only a soft copy. Funny thing though, John gets himself mixed up with Mark in that document.

Concrete evidence no one saw except with spiritual eyes. Makes perfect sense.