NOM

<sarcasm>The Christ-like love and brotherly concern here is truly heartwarming. <sarcasm>

https://invisiblescubit.wordpress.com/2 ... our-midst/

That is absolutely- Orwellian. That sounds like some kind of dialog out of the novel "1984." I'm so sorry for Sam Young and his family, but he is now free of those "zombies." If anyone doubted the dysfunctionalism of the church leaders, it is there for everyone, the entire world, to see.
Thanks for sending this along. -- Wndr.

Most of these "courts of love" are just controlled. The church lies out its face with this non-disclosure stuff. And its soooooo stacked. You have 16 men (usually) in those courts,...and unless they let you bring in someone on your side, its kindof lop-sided...would you say?

Its their turf. They are the ones who control it. Its crazy that we even involve ourselves in it. There needs to be more courts of LAW invoked that even the playing field against the church.

They sure do like to waste a lot of people's time. Sam, the SP, and the former BP.

I guess they didn't want to pay for the postage for a letter on official letterhead that said:

No.

P.S. - Go away.

That was a Kafkaesque scenario. It felt like church lawyers were involved who simply did not want any kind of legal material that Sam Young could retain afterwards. As it stands, any inquiry into Sam's status will be simply given the answer, "This is a private, ecclesiastic matter and we will not comment." Sam has nothing in hand that he can show to the press going forward and church lawyers like it that way.

I have heard of at least one other case largely like this. It seems to happen when the church is dealing with a PR situation. If adultery leads to excommunication then a fully signed letter will be provided because that's not newsworthy. But if making a principled stand against the institutional church is a possibility, then Kirton-McConkie does not want to provide any possible ammunition.

When I was a TBM, I was more afraid of a potential church court than any civil court.

So dumb.

His description of the meeting - it felt so insulting. No answers. No respect. No courtesy. So lacking in Christlike love and compassion.

It's weird that they didn't just call him. Probably some manditory check off, I don't blame thr So and BP for putting him off on getting a copy of things. The whole process is pretty corporate and legal, no loose ends

On one hand it's very corporate and legal, but on the other hand it is the exact opposite.

When I resigned, I got a letter from the church, though the lawyer handling the case (quitmormon.org) stating that I had been removed from the rolls. Both sides have proof that I'm out. I can use it to keep the local leaders from bugging me, and the church can use it to prevent me from claiming I am still a member.

The fact that they refuse to put anything in writing is very odd. That is the opposite of how a legal entity operates. If Sam really wanted to push it, he could basically say that since they have never given him anything in writing, he has no proof he has actually been removed from the church and is still a member in good standing. Conversely, the church cannot keep him out of anything because they have for formally given him notice that he has been removed. If he has a TR, he could potentially still use it. Also the fact that they refuse to give him copies of the document he has to sign as part of the Ex process, like the NDA. For all he knows, the church has not actually ex-ed him, and it is only the SP who is trying to jerk him around.

This is something that a Lawyer could have a lot of fun with. The question is does Sam have the balls to really push on this or will he just roll over and take it? To me it seems like there is something else going on here.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:47 amIf Sam really wanted to push it, he could basically say that since they have never given him anything in writing, he has no proof he has actually been removed from the church and is still a member in good standing.

The interaction in this thread is only in regard to Sam's "Appeal" to the first presidency. Sam has a letter from his original tribunal informing him he is no longer a member.

Sam is delusional if he thinks he's going to:

A) win an appeal.
B) be taken serious in an appeal.
C) be given documentation to put on the internet.
D) ever be let back in to the Mormon church.

He's embarrassed the leadership of the church on a local level, a regional level, a national level, an international level, and a Kolobian level.

He's embarrassed the Q12, the FP, and even Heavenly Father himself. He's exposed the church as an organization ripe for sexual predator Bishops and counselors to roam freely among the most vulnerable youth in the name of worthiness interviews.

It's a shame the church doesn't see the obvious problems and make sweeping changes.

Why would Sam even want to file an appeal in the first place? To rejoin the organization that allows for abuse of children to continue? F that!

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:42 am Why would Sam even want to file an appeal in the first place? To rejoin the organization that allows for abuse of children to continue? F that!

He wants to lose the appeal and have proof that the First Presidency had reviewed and rejected it. Then nobody could honestly say it was only a local decision.

He wants to drag the FP into the fight.

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:11 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:42 am Why would Sam even want to file an appeal in the first place? To rejoin the organization that allows for abuse of children to continue? F that!

He wants to lose the appeal and have proof that the First Presidency had reviewed and rejected it. Then nobody could honestly say it was only a local decision.

He wants to drag the FP into the fight.

And knowing this, TFP has refused, via his stake president, to give him a written notice of his appeal being denied.