NOM

I know the advice for transitioning out of Mormonism is to include one’s spouse. For example, don’t stop wearing garments, don’t stop paying tithing, don’t start the coffee, etc., don’t do any of those things without including one’s TBM spouse in the discussion/decision.

However, I guess I just don’t know how much I agree with this or where to draw the line. I mean, I can almost guarantee my neighbor doesn’t consult their spouse over changing brands of underwear. Or having a drink with dinner. Or whether to watch an R rated movie. Or to work in the yard with a tank top. I suppose I can assume a lot from my Mormon background and my spouse’s beliefs about what I should or should not go over with them first before making changes, but honestly, how am I supposed to know what is and isn’t over the line?

At the same time it seems like giving them a lot of power and control over my body and my life and my salvation (from their POV) which technically I should be able to accept or not. How am I supposed to know what that line is? Sometimes I wonder if it isn’t compounded a bit by being a woman and feeling like I have to please people and ask for permission about all kinds of stupid things to keep the peace. (Particularly in the church where I can make NO decision - even which hymn to play for sacrament meeting - without a man's okay first.)

How is the disappointment my spouse feels when I stop wearing garments different than the disappointment I faced as a new bride to find out my husband didn’t do scripture study? Or his home teaching? Or go to the temple?

Do I just have a really crappy marriage and huge communication problems? Do people really go over every decision they make together? How does one decide what things are important and which things are not?

I’m asking because I have thought about this for a long time. I don’t know how to fix it. My husband and I got into a big argument recently about something I did that I thought was nothing – how was I supposed to know? And I know someone who is easing out of Mormonism without telling her husband and I feel like I ought to tell her what I know now that I didn’t years ago as she is still early in the process.

I’d love to have a discussion on this from varying viewpoints.

As the disbelieving (male) spouse, I still went through some of the same things with my own spouse. When I let her know I'd decided to leave the church, the first thing she wanted to sit down and discuss was the mechanics of me leaving - shifting values, garments, WoW, support for her and the kids if they want to stay in, etc..

It wasn't a question of whether I would stop wearing garments, but she wanted to know if it would happen immediately or over time. When she asked about WoW, I told her I'd be drinking coffee for sure, and in fact already had. She wanted to know about alcohol because she'd had some pretty bad experiences with alcoholic/drug-abusing extended family. More than anything, she wanted reassurance that I was still dedicated to her.

In our case, almost everything was on the table - except alcohol. I told her after some time that I wanted to try it. She had a hard time with that, and it's something we eased into slowly. It wasn't about asking permission, but about tackling something that she had a genuine fear of with real, valid reasons.

I don't think you need to ask permission for anything. Telling him where you're at as a courtesy might be appreciated, but I think it's okay to be firm in your decisions.

Sometimes I have to step back and I'm the one who changed things. Yes, I was lied to by the church and made life decisions (like not drinking alcohol) based on those lies. That realization doesn't change that I'm changing the agreement we made with each other when we got married. I'm lucky that I have a very understanding wife, one who is largely in agreement with me in matters of faith now, but we didn't start out that way. I think both of us had to make room for the other.

Excellent question. One of the big gains from leaving the church is the unprecedented autonomy. For the first time in life, especially as a woman, I was the boss of myself. I didn't give my husband a say in my decisions, but I was open. He knew when I tried alcohol, coffee, removed my g's.

I hear people talk about communicating with their spouses and going at a pace the spouse feels comfortable with, and even allowing them a say in whether they try coffee or alcohol. It seems very sweet. They appear to have a healthy relationship. For me it was healthier to make my decisions for my own reasons.

That may be part of the consideration. If you're in a healthy relationship with appropriate boundaries and trust, it's probably healthy to include your spouse in the decisions. You'll trust them to consider what is in your best interest.

If that's not the case, then enjoy your newfound rights to make decisions about your life based on your own values and priorities.

The only thing I'd say is that these things might seem small to you, but they represent an entire life shift to your spouse.

So if you're going to take that leap, maybe have a conversation up front. You don't have to go into specifics, but just let him know that as you're no longer a member of the church, you are still dedicated to your marriage and to him.

I don't think you need to tell him every time you have coffee or the day you stop wearing your garments, but maybe just some sort of upfront acknowledgement that you're not always going to live a Mormon since you aren't one anymore would be helpful?

I've watched enough Mormon Stories podcasts to know everyone is different here, so I know there's no one size fits all approach. I guess for me with this stuff the believers still feel like it's a seismic shift when you drink coffee, which seems so insane to think about but I've heard it here about how people rebel by doing it (and I don't drink coffee).

Let us know how it goes... it'll be good help for those of us still navigating through everything.

First off, what FreeFallin said! End of post!

Second, I can't imagine there's a man on this planet that's actually disappointed when his wife stops wearing garments then I realize we live in the twilight zone!!!

I guess for some people taking garments off is the same as marital infidelity?? It's not btw.

I say own your actions and do what you got to do within reason. Then be willing to discuss your new life rules with them as needed and be empathetic but firm. It's your body, you can choose which underwear to wear (or not to wear)!

While my spouse hasn't always been happy with my decisions (no G's, No $, no bull$hit) she has adjusted to "new normal". Over time they eventually will.

Own your life. It's the only one you've got.

PS. How's the kid?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:05 pm Second, I can't imagine there's a man on this planet that's actually disappointed when his wife stops wearing garments then I realize we live in the twilight zone!!!

Truer words have never been spoken. If DW lost the garments I think I could deal with a lot of the other stuff so much better.

However, I guess I just don’t know how much I agree with this or where to draw the line. I mean, I can almost guarantee my neighbor doesn’t consult their spouse over changing brands of underwear. Or having a drink with dinner. Or whether to watch an R rated movie. Or to work in the yard with a tank top. I suppose I can assume a lot from my Mormon background and my spouse’s beliefs about what I should or should not go over with them first before making changes, but honestly, how am I supposed to know what is and isn’t over the line?

If the neighbors are not Mormon, then changing underwear brands, drinking alcohol, and so forth, are no big deal to them. That's different for Mormons, where the church emphasizes obedience to the w.o.w., wearing g's day and night, and so forth; so it worries your TBM spouse, even though it's your own decision.

Are you happy in your marriage, or do you feel that your husband is very controlling and making you miserable? If you're unhappy or worried about your husband's response to your decisions, then your decisions become more stressful if your feel you cannot talk with him.

If you're unhappy in your marriage, would it be possible to see a counselor to talk about issues of communication, or resentment, or your concerns about wanting to make your own decisions with or without his approval? You have every right to make your own decisions, and your counselor can help you sort out how you feel about your husband and the relationship. - JMO - - Wndr.

FreeFallin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:20 pm I hear people talk about communicating with their spouses and going at a pace the spouse feels comfortable with, and even allowing them a say in whether they try coffee or alcohol. It seems very sweet. They appear to have a healthy relationship. For me it was healthier to make my decisions for my own reasons.

Honestly, I think the advice is less about being sweet or having a rock solid marriage to begin with but because of how large a grip Mormonism has on spouses and how damaging the slippery slope and contagious apostasy narratives contain within it are. So it's less about a healthy level of communication and autonomy between individuals in a marriage and more about not spooking the horse and causing it to bolt.

A lot of this is water under the bridge. I stopped wearing garments five years ago and my husband knows about that. He knows I only go to church to support him. I’ve been mentally out for years and I admit that not communicating where I was along the way was wrong and created complications, but here’s the thing: we never discussed church stuff, ever – not when we were dating, before we had kids, never. When I began questioning my religion it was something we just didn’t talk about with each other, just like we don’t talk golf with each other either – we can go out on the driving range together but when it’s over, it’s over even if he is really into it (made up example here). Sometimes I wonder if being married for so long without children made it complicated – I had so much personal autonomy before kids.

There is so much variance in the orthodoxy of TBMs. I know members who: see Coke and coffee as the same sin, keep the sabbath on vacation, who wear two piece swimsuits, watch Game of Thrones, dress their baby in a modesty onesie, eat mocha ice cream, etc. How does one really know which things are going to hurt someone?

Yes, I know the neighbors are different because they never married under the assumption they were going to wear 19th century underpants for the rest of their lives. But it was an assumption. How many of us really sat down and talked about that with our spouses when we got married? But how about other things? Like finances, my neighbors have those. I had lunch a while back with a TBM who had a chai tea with her lunch but was shocked that my husband and I share all of our financial information with each other. We are very transparent financially, but I drink tea on the sly and she doesn’t, whereas she and her husband don’t share financial information but apparently have no problem with small infractions of the WoW (in fairness, having known her for years, her financial life is probably in the same kind of shambles my religious life is in – perhaps I ought to take a lesson from that). It just seems like this stuff is all over the map.

In some ways I’m just curious about the advice generally. There’s something that doesn’t sit right with me about it, but I have a difficult time articulating what it is. I don't think it's defensiveness, I can admit I should have done things differently. It’s probably about boundaries and autonomy. And I do wonder if I should give my friend the heads up that she’s going someplace without her spouse and she may regret not being open with him.

Dravin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:57 am

FreeFallin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:20 pm I hear people talk about communicating with their spouses and going at a pace the spouse feels comfortable with, and even allowing them a say in whether they try coffee or alcohol. It seems very sweet. They appear to have a healthy relationship. For me it was healthier to make my decisions for my own reasons.

Honestly, I think the advice is less about being sweet or having a rock solid marriage to begin with but because of how large a grip Mormonism has on spouses and how damaging the slippery slope and contagious apostasy narratives contain within it are. So it's less about a healthy level of communication and autonomy between individuals in a marriage and more about not spooking the horse and causing it to bolt.

I was trying to think how to say, make your own decisions, just don’t panic your spouse that you are going to turn into an alcoholic, drug abusing, crook, and do it all overnight. But the thought about not spooking the horse and causing it to bolt is good.

The church teaches its members that when people leave the church, they go off the deep end into reckless behavior, substance abuse, become both unhappy and emotionally unstable, and probably have an affair or two. So, when their spouse says they don’t believe, they are just waiting for the other shoe to drop and they are positive they cannot live with affairs, alcoholism, and all the other things they have heard about how wicked people become when they stop believing. You and I know we are the same people we have always been, but our spouse is expecting us to suddenly become evil. So, they see one step toward alcohol, and they panic and are positive it is only a few weeks till you are an out of control alcoholic. Or they see you are without garments, and assume you are having an affair, or will shortly. They panic and all rational thought goes out the window.

This panic is what you want to avoid. So, you have a rational discussion before hand about how you no longer feel obligated to wear the garments and don’t think you ever promised God that you would wear them, and you have stopped caring what church leaders insist you promised God when they coerced you onto the whole contract, which by the way, would get laughted out of court if you challenged it legally. You don’t ASK, you tell him how you feel about the temple, or the garments, or what ever, and then you TELL him your decision. Then you ask him how he feels about it, tell him you are sorry if he feels bad, but that eventually he will see that your underwear doesn’t make you a good or bad person. Then you cut the marks out, because even though you don’t care, he does, and respectfully get rid of them and take him with you shopping for some pretty feminine (sexy) stuff.

If he divorces you over that, then it is good riddance to a controlling jerk.

If I was in your shoes, I would talk about how hard this is because of how the church treats women like husband appendages and never ever lets women make independent decisions and how you are not a child and you are going to stop acting like one. And how that now you see it for what it is, you resent it and are angry. Just because the church lumps women and children into the same “appendages to men” group, doesn’t mean it is true. And maybe you might swing too far into independence out of anger, and if you do, he needs to tell you so the two of you can discuss whose decision it really is. This warns him about future decisions you might make without consulting him. Then you live life your way.

OK, went to post and saw what you added. You might not want to compare yourself and your marriage to anyone else. Yes, Mormons are all over the map when it comes to how they obey. And every marriage is different, with some people sharing all financial information and others maintains separate bank accounts. But what works for your friend might be a disaster for you, and the other way around. The only time it matters is if one spouse is demanding financial transparency, while not giving it, or is too controlling. I knew a couple once that he gave her a budget without getting information from her on what she really needed. Divorced. My daughter is maitaining separate bank accounts, while demanding all expenses other than *her* bank account be shared. But her bank account is her insurance because third marriage and she sold her home and moved into his. That back account is the money from the sale of her home, and he knows exactly what it is and why. So, it should work because nothing is unfair or secret.

You and your spouse need to negotiate what will work for you. Some people need financial independence, others need friend independence, others need guys night out independence, while others need some other form of independence. What do you need and what does your DH need? That is all that matters.

Yes, your independence/dependence changes when you have kids. You have to renegotiate things at different stages of marriage.

Good advice, alas. Very practical. I appreciate that. And you're right - I shouldn't compare my marriage to anyone else's. It's just hard to know what normal/appropriate is, especially when I've been taking marriage advice from the church since I was knee-high to a grasshopper.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:34 am Yes, your independence/dependence changes when you have kids. You have to renegotiate things at different stages of marriage.

This is big. So many people assume nothing has to be renegotiated, nothing changes, people don't change, and it isn't true.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:02 am There is so much variance in the orthodoxy of TBMs. I know members who: see Coke and coffee as the same sin, keep the sabbath on vacation, who wear two piece swimsuits, watch Game of Thrones, dress their baby in a modesty onesie, eat mocha ice cream, etc. How does one really know which things are going to hurt someone?

Yep. I realized once I informed my wife that I was an atheist that despite having been TBM we both have very different ideas about marriage. In her mind marriage only existed with god (she'd probably go so far as saying with the temple), so my non-belief caused a crisis of marriage for her. If the roles had been reversed though it wouldn't have caused the same crisis for me because I saw marriage as something that existed outside of god even if I would have previously argued that God made it better. So even within a marriage you can have quite a divergence in belief even if both spouses are TBM.

Yes, I know the neighbors are different because they never married under the assumption they were going to wear 19th century underpants for the rest of their lives. But it was an assumption. How many of us really sat down and talked about that with our spouses when we got married?

Me and my wife had a conversation about this once. For instance, alcohol, she brought up that we agreed to never allow alcohol in the house. I pointed out that no, we did not. As TBMs we obviously assumed neither one of us would bring alcohol into the house and because we both assumed it we never actually ever had a conversation about the issue. It's the same with a host of other Mormon doctrinal and cultural restrictions, it was assumed by both and because it was assumed it was never actually discussed. I felt a little bit lawyery pointing it out but given she was trying to accuse me of breaking an agreement with each other I felt like I had to speak up.

Dravin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:41 pm
Yep. I realized once I informed my wife that I was an atheist that despite having been TBM we both have very different ideas about marriage. In her mind marriage only existed with god (she'd probably go so far as saying with the temple), so my non-belief caused a crisis of marriage for her. If the roles had been reversed though it wouldn't have caused the same crisis for me because I saw marriage as something that existed outside of god even if I would have previously argued that God made it better. So even within a marriage you can have quite a divergence in belief even if both spouses are TBM.

That's interesting. I wonder if that's why you had the faith transition and she didn't? While I would have been disappointed had my husband been the one to stop believing, I think I would have handled it better, as I've always been the one in the relationship to carry more cosmopolitan views.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:33 pm but honestly, how am I supposed to know what is and isn’t over the line?

It will be different for everyone I suppose. I dont think there is a way to know. When I transitioned out, I didnt think that the garments would be an issue for me. As it turns out, I have learned a ton about what turns me on and off, and garments have become an issue for me. I cant help it. I recently sat down and explained all the things that run through my mind when I see them. It was shocking even for me articulating them how many issues are connected. We had a convo early on in my transition and DW asked me if it was going to be a problem and I told her no and honestly believed it. I think she may feel a little betrayed now.

Moving from a position of never having to consult about lifestyle to all the sudden changing lifestyles is suuuuper painful. I dont think that even up front conversations and communication will alleviate it all. I think the most important thing is to agree that someones feelings are going to get hurt, probably both people. If the hurts are spread out over time healing can occur before the next one?

I dont know. All I know is that life is hard.