NOM

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:32 pm**

I've read a lot of the posts here, and something the TBMs get into as well as many Christians in general, is trying to find what God wants them to do and complying.

I don't get this from the TBM perspective at all, nor from the Christian view either. This same God who they want to follow ALSO had babies killed (like, as in see the Old Testament!). They also talk about Jesus and his magnanimous sacrifice...but even that can have problems.

Is there something inside of humans that just longs to defer control to someone or something else--be that a "prophet", a "cause" or "a god"?

Thoughts?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:41 pm**

Yes, I see this a ton, in general developing your own sense of independent morals is complex and actually a lot of work. And if you feel insecure sometimes you can have quite a bit of anxiety about whether or not you are doing life right.

So if somebody comes along and says "Hey I have the prescription for doing everything right, just follow this!" Its seems and easy and sure path to be accepted by others/god.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:56 pm**

Just look at the things that are held up as inspirational: Abraham willing to slit his own son's throat, Nephi beheading someone because a voice in his head told him to, handcart pioneers suffering and dying because they surrendered their own common sense to the demands of priesthood leaders who were 100% wrong.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven.

The first order of heaven is obedience.

I guess God loves suffering. Maybe it's the only thing that brings variety to his interminably boring and endless existence.

Or maybe it's just that holding things like that over your head makes you more pliable in submitting to things like sacrificing all of your spare time
and paying tithing before feeding your kids.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:19 pm**

When I was a missionary, another missionary told me that a local church leader had once confided in him that the gospel plan is ultimately selfish.

That idea stuck in my mind. I couldn't help asking myself whether I would care as much what God wanted me to do if an attractive afterlife with family and eternal progression were not part of the deal. If there were nothing but this life, would God's existence even be relevant to me?

It made me uncomfortable to follow that line of thought too far, though. Maybe in part out of fear that entertaining such ideas might hurt my chances of attaining those very rewards if I ended up exercising faith with inappropriate motivation.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 pm**

Which God are we talking about here?

Please specify so I can give an appropriate answer.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:16 pm**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:56 pm I guess God loves suffering. Maybe it's the only thing that brings variety to his interminably boring and endless existence.

Seems to be the case. It used to be that the Abrahamic God got his rocks off by just watching animals put to the knife and butchered in bizarre rituals, but over time it seems he’s needed harder material to be satisfied—human death and suffering on a grand scale seems to be what he is into these days if modern Christians are to be believed.

Wish God would’ve stuck to just watching porn.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:18 pm**

Ghost wrote: ↑Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:19 pm When I was a missionary, another missionary told me that a local church leader had once confided in him that the gospel plan is ultimately selfish.

Following a list of mundane rules so you can be a god and mete out justice to billions of grovelling souls... what's selfish about that?

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:28 pm**

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 pm Which God are we talking about here?

Please specify so I can give an appropriate answer.

"MY" god, of course!

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:11 pm**

This is all about the process in psychology called "individuation" and Dr. James Fowler attempted to chart it out with his stages. Fundamentalist religion attempts to stunt and prevent or delay it at all costs which is why most of us here are in mid life where our secular peers individuated much much earlier in young adulthood.

Posted: **Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:07 pm**

The importance of struggling with another’s discourse, its influence in the history of an individual’s coming to ideological consciousness, is enormous. One’s own discourse and one’s own voice, although born of another or dynamically stimulated by another, will sooner or later begin to liberate themselves from the authority of the other’s discourse. This process is made more complex by the fact that a variety of alien voices enter into the struggle for influence within an individual’s consciousness (just as they struggle with one another in surrounding social reality.)

Bakhtin, The Dialogic Imagination, 348

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:00 pm**

Seeing as how I do not know what God wants I do not care

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:58 pm**

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:00 pm Seeing as how I do not know what God wants I do not care

I think that John Larsen coined the phrase “Apathyism” (or something similar) for this belief system in one of his podcasts.

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:57 pm**

w2mz wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:58 pm
1smartdodog wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:00 pm Seeing as how I do not know what God wants I do not care
I think that John Larsen coined the phrase “Apathyism” (or something similar) for this belief system in one of his podcasts.

Apatheism - Wikipedia

"Don't know, don't care..."

Posted: **Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:37 pm**

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:32 pm Is there something inside of humans that just longs to defer control to someone or something else--be that a "prophet", a "cause" or "a god"?

Thoughts?

I think there are two aspects of it. One is deferral to authority for the sticky questions and problems, you don't have to, for instance, try to develop you own ethical framework if you can just point to someone else and let them decide (not necessarily a theist only issue). Outside of moral issues you can avoid a lot of agonizing decisions, such as if you should take a job, or at the very least soothe those remaining doubts if you believe God is directing you. Likewise you can smother guilt and self doubt in the blanket of, "This is what god wanted."

The second thing is combating randomness, the idea of having an ordered, directed, and externally purposed life is a warm fuzzy blanket for a lot of people. That a love one is suffering through cancer is a lot more palatable for many if rather than it just being the vagaries of mitosis that it is something purposeful and directed towards a purpose such as a lesson in this life to bring one closer to god in the end. That car accident that stole a 16 year old child? It is a lot more comfortable to think they were needed for some work on the other side rather then it just being an impersonal consequence of the kinetic efficient of friction between rubber and ice.

To be a bit less wordy, it is the grown up attempt to recapture that feeling many of us had as kids that Mom and Dad would always make everything okay so we didn't need to be worried or scared just trust them to love us and do what Mommies and Daddies do.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:05 am**

Dravin wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:37 pm
To be a bit less wordy, it is the grown up attempt to recapture that feeling many of us had as kids that Mom and Dad would always make everything okay so we didn't need to be worried or scared just trust them to love us and do what Mommies and Daddies do.

This one got me thinking. I think there is probably something really to this.

Posted: **Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:17 am**

One of the reasons I asked this question is because of my own LDS faith collapse. When my shelf crashed into a billion unrepairable fragments, it frightened me badly. Not because I missed the misogynistic and sadistic god who I was taught to adore--but because the whole purpose of life I once had was gone. In my life, I personally believe--STRONGLY--the love and compassion are all that really matter. Those things are the glue that holds life together, IMHO. But if there is no supreme source of these things (in god), then what? But a major portion of cognitive dissonance for me is that love and compassion couldn't exist in this god with the track record of cruelty and jealously that seemed to be part of who [he|she|it] was.

I've concluded that the only person who can carry love and compassion is me. If I hold those things inviolate and precious, then to ME that is my reality. Regardless of the ugliness of this world, things are a little better because I'm here. Why?...because if god doesn't give a sh*t about me, doesn't matter--I GIVE A SH*T about what OTHERS feels. If I can somehow alleviate a little hurt or suffering, if I can share a kind word or a smile, then I BECOME POWERfUL...by making a small difference, little by little.

NOM

Why give a sh*t what god wants?

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