NOM

I haven't listened yet, but this is a topic that's had a lot of discussion around here and I'm sure Consiglieri and Bill will not disappoint:

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... 42-part-1/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... 3-part-2/

I am so looking forward to my bike ride tomorrow.

This will be queued up shortly. RFM is quite precise in his observations.

Just finished -- it's definitely worth the listen and sums up a lot of issues better than I could've.

And actually they made some points I don't think I had heard on here or the other forums about Oaks' talk... it's also kind of enraging because it's so obvious when you're out of the church, but the TBMs just can't see it. But that's nothing new.

Anyway - great podcast and a long listen that covers a lot of ground well!

jfro18 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:51 am Anyway - great podcast and a long listen that covers a lot of ground well!

Yes, it was very thorough. I often come away from podcasts thinking "I wish they had talked about..." but this was a full coverage tour de force.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody!

I find that Bill Reel does a good job of saying the things I forget to say.

And I often find myself smiling on the other end of the line as he says things so well that never even occurred to me!

All the Best!

--RFM

I only have one small nitpik, and that is how Bill pronounces Brigham Young as Bring'em Young and have to wonder if it is merely an Ohio accent thing or an intentional and hilarious dig at the man. [emoji16]

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:37 pm I only have one small nitpik, and that is how Bill pronounces Brigham Young as Bring'em Young and have to wonder if it is merely an Ohio accent thing or an intentional and hilarious dig at the man. [emoji16]

I feel as though I've been summoned

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:37 pm I only have one small nitpik, and that is how Bill pronounces Brigham Young as Bring'em Young and have to wonder if it is merely an Ohio accent thing or an intentional and hilarious dig at the man. [emoji16]

There's no way that's not intentional - I've heard way too many podcasts where he does it to think it could be merely an accent. And speaking as a midwesterner... no one says it that way.

Way to go RFM, Consiglieri, Ray.

Bring 'em Young has to be intentional. I love it.

I love your podcast. Makes me laugh and keeps me sane.

This podcast helped me see a parallel between Mormon leadership and Trumpism. You know how Trump just states whatever he wants people to believe as if it were true, apart from any evidence, and his devout followers will just believe it? Same thing (e.g. the Democrats are funding the caravan because they want to bring drugs, murderers and Middle Eastern terrorists into this country because they hate American ideals). There is no scriptural, doctrinal, or revelatory evidence to support Oaks' claims about gender and sexual orientation, or to support the Proclamation. He just says it, talks as if it's the word of God, and expects you to ignore all evidence, bow your head and say yes. Absurd.

I'd like to sit down face to face with DHO and walk him through my faith transition. When he tries to spew out that BS that my conclusions were wrong because I learned the truth from secular and anon sources I'd list out all the church own sources that helped me learn the truth. Then I'd testify to him the spiritual journey I went on to find the truth, yes, spiritual confirmation that what I found was the truth and that the LD$ church is BS. Not spiritual the way the COB defines it, but actual genuine soul searching and honesty to self. I'd testify of my metaphysical experiences I'd experienced, greater than anything outside of mormonism and not related to any old white haired imaginary man in another dimension. On top of all that, my increase in genuine happiness and a significant decrease is stress and guilt. I found a very altruistic way to live and enjoy my life outside of mormonism, as well as a greatly increased appreciation for it.

I'm sure from his view I was just deceived by Satan. How can I be deceived by a being that does not exists? Reminds me of that Love and Rockets song: American Dream

So let's blame this excess on an American dream
Are you confused by the chaos in everyone's wandering eyes
Do you dream of running naked in warm rain
Are you confused by the chaos it's no surprise
We all stand next to Jesus close to Satan we're both the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E84rBABbroc

As the podcast pointed out, I would also ask DHO how it is his logic works for all people, even those in religions that came to the conclusion their faith is the absolute truth by the very methods DHO says they should use to find the truth. Mormons are right because their Jesus is the best and the right one, their prophets are the true messengers from Father. 99.98% of the world is deceived by Satan, no matter how sincere they are and no matter how much of a spiritual witness they think they have had. Well shame on God for making it that way! What a bunch of BS!

And that is why the Q15 do not talk to anyone outside of tightly controlled situations. If they were to take real questions from normal people, it would be obvious that they are not what they claim to be.


ON a side note, Bill mentioned he has a list of 200+ statements from GAs that were spoken as doctrine that were latter disavowed. Anyone happen to know what list he is talking about?

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:30 pm ON a side note, Bill mentioned he has a list of 200+ statements from GAs that were spoken as doctrine that were latter disavowed. Anyone happen to know what list he is talking about?

I would imagine a ton of those are regarding blacks and the priesthood. There are so many GAs who asserted it was doctrine from God.

Then you have the Adam-God theory stuff from Brigham's days- that would get you some more. Then blood atonement from Brighams days.

You could go to polygamy too since it's disavowed, but I think polygamy isn't really disavowed since they're still practicing it in the CK.

BringEmYoung wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:19 pm I feel as though I've been summoned

I hope you brought enough for everyone.

consiglieri wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:04 pm Thanks for the kind words, everybody!

I find that Bill Reel does a good job of saying the things I forget to say.

And I often find myself smiling on the other end of the line as he says things so well that never even occurred to me!

All the Best!

--RFM

You guys really are a dynamic duo.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:43 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:30 pm ON a side note, Bill mentioned he has a list of 200+ statements from GAs that were spoken as doctrine that were latter disavowed. Anyone happen to know what list he is talking about?

I would imagine a ton of those are regarding blacks and the priesthood. There are so many GAs who asserted it was doctrine from God.

Then you have the Adam-God theory stuff from Brigham's days- that would get you some more. Then blood atonement from Brighams days.

You could go to polygamy too since it's disavowed, but I think polygamy isn't really disavowed since they're still practicing it in the CK.

This would be an interesting list. I'm just listening to the podcast now. I'm at the 12 minute mark and I'm taking a break. I'll chip in my 2 bits too. ($)

Since Oaks is so sure of himself, it would be interesting to hear him discourse and explain WHY current data is wrong.

It always baffles me why these apostle types make declarations, but they totally skip the "persuasion, meekness, long-suffering" part of the equation. They take it upon themselves to 'declare the word of God' as they suppose,...yet the only authority they have is who THEY say called them. Its a group composed of a bunch of people who self-endorse.

I could start a church and call a friend up to ordain me. If someone asked who ordained me, I could say my friend. If I asked that friend why he ordained me, he could say "god told me to ordain him"....but in reality it was I who asked him, perhaps saying god told me to tell him that. Circular reasoning at its finest.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:30 pm And that is why the Q15 do not talk to anyone outside of tightly controlled situations. If they were to take real questions from normal people, it would be obvious that they are not what they claim to be.

Jeff Holland's famous "I'm not a dodo" experience with the BBC news crew is possibly the last major time that an apostle was recorded taking questions from skeptical non-believers. There is a conspiracy theory that the whole "Meet the Mormons" movie was produced by the LDS church simply to cause Google searches to not easily find the BBC story also titled "Meet the Mormons".

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:30 pm ON a side note, Bill mentioned he has a list of 200+ statements from GAs that were spoken as doctrine that were latter disavowed. Anyone happen to know what list he is talking about?

Ken Clark is a former CES instructor who presented "Lying for the Lord" at the 2008 ExMormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. There is a recorded version also available. I don't know that this is the exact list that Bill references, but surely there is a huge overlap.

President Oaks says that there has to be opposition for agency to be meaningful. Why then does the Church so thoroughly minimize the opposition view? The 21st century Church is consistently more biased than any of our news networks, because it gives no opportunity for the opposing view. At least apostles like Orson Pratt and John Taylor participated in public debates.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:25 am

Jeff Holland's famous "I'm not a dodo" experience with the BBC news crew is possibly the last major time that an apostle was recorded taking questions from skeptical non-believers. There is a conspiracy theory that the whole "Meet the Mormons" movie was produced by the LDS church simply to cause Google searches to not easily find the BBC story also titled "Meet the Mormons".

My conspiracy theory is that the whole mormon name change is because John Dehlin put up that billboard advertizing Mormon Stories. Now TBMs won’t be tricked into listening to them.