NOM

The Church formerly known as LDS/Mormon maintains itself to be the true restoration of fallen Christianity and as such is the only true church.

I am wondering about the claim that the Church formerly known as LDS/Mormon is like the original Christian Church of 100 AD. Is there any evidence that today's former LDS/Mormon Church bears any resemblance to the primitive church? I can see the resemblance of the current Church governance to that of the Sanhedrin, but that was not part of original Christianity. We use some of the words from New Testament times but in a greatly altered sense.

What are your thoughts on this matter?

This would be an interesting exercise to break down the NT into a summary timeline, starting with Christ calling the apostles, drawing out those doctrines that seem to be consistent and not outliers, pointing out which gospels and doctrines might be questionable because of when particular epistles were written and which might not have questionable authorship. Then compare all that to the ACTUAL historical evolution of the church formerly known as LDS/Mormon.

But I also see a couple of problems with this. The claimed modern day revelations can trump anything they did in the NT. The NT has it's own plethora of historical inaccuracies and unsupported claims, so it has the same loose threads as the COBs sweater does, just pull one and it will be lying on the floor undone. Don't even bother with the OT, it's worse.

Once you start to look at any of these man made religions and their histories with a critical investigation...Well, I think Depeche Mode said it best:

Reach out and touch faith
Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares
Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who's there
Feeling unknown
And you're all alone
Flesh and bone
By the telephone
Lift up the receiver
I'll make you a believer
Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess
I will deliver
You know I'm a forgiver
Reach out and touch faith
Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares
Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who's there
Feeling unknown
And you're all alone
Flesh and bone
By the telephone
Lift up the receiver
I'll make you a believer
Reach out and touch faith

You might also see an avatar in the video from one of our recently returned prodigal NOM sons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI

First you have to decide which restoration church first restored the gospel. Was it the reformed baptists, Barton Stone, Alexander Campbell, Alexander Crawford, George Forrester, Walter Scott, or even earlier, Nathaniel Wood in Vermont?

Rubin H is fishing for a Stealth...

RR thinks both are man made organizations.

I enjoy perusing the more liberal Christian literature (Marcus Borg, Richard Rohr, Rob Bell) and listen to some podcasts (Robcast, Bible for Normal People). The general consensus among scholars seems to be: 1. Jesus lived and died a good Jew, meaning he did not set up a Church, based on what is in the NT; 2. The early Christian movement was comprised of good Jews, who saw it as a part of Judaism, not its own religion, the split occurred in the early 100s (when the gospel of John was written and it reflects this tension in the numerous confrontations between Jesus and Jewish leaders); 3. The early Christian Church was not what we think of as a Church and was very loosely organized and the sacrament was more of a potluck dinner; 4. The institutional Christian Church came much later and in connection with Constantine. Also, we need to confront the difficult truth that FiveFingerMnemonic points out that restorationism was all the rage at the time of Joseph Smith and restoration churches were popping up all over.

I recommend that you take a look at The Didache. This is basically the Gospel Principles manual of first and second century Christianity. The title is Greek for "The Teachings" or "The Training" of the apostles. It's not long. You can read the whole thing in half an hour and easily note the kinds of things that people who knew Peter, James, and John were concerned about. This is what new converts learned from.

We actually had fragments of The Diadche for centuries. But then a Greek Orthodox priest discovered a complete copy in 1873 in Istanbul. It has been heavily investigated and examined since then and we have a ton of evidence of its authenticity. This was a book that was almost included in the original New Testament, but it was just barely one step removed from authorship by actual apostles and witnesses of Jesus Christ.

The contents center around following the "Way of Life" and avoiding the "Way of Death". The anonymous author was clearly a big fan of the Book of Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount. Baptism and the sacrament were cearly important. If you want a restoration of original Christianity, this should be heavily considered. If I were a bishop or elders quorum president, I would encourage the more introspective members of my ward study The Didache and understand what followers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Meridian-day Saints was reading.

The church has long mis-interpreted Matt. 16: 13-20.

According to Howard W. Hunter (and many others):

"And upon this rock I will build my church.’ Upon what rock? Peter? Upon a man? No, not upon a man, upon the rock of revelation, the thing which they were talking about."

Sorry but a close reading of this passage reveals that they were talking about the identity of Christ. "Whom do men say that I am?"

The "Rock" that Christianity is founded upon is the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. Yes, that knowledge is given by revelation but "revelation" itself as a principle can be easily distorted and abused. Used to manipulate sincere, unsuspecting people. There is more than sufficient knowledge in the Biblical scriptures to find salvation.

The Old Testament is the 1st Witness of Christ (Stick of Judah). The New Testament is the 2nd Witness of Christ (Stick of Ephraim). Together they are "One in mine hand."

The Book of Mormon is just a wanna-be preacher's sermon/commentary based around an ongoing war story......it restores nothing.

Christianity will be "restored" in its fullness and correctness upon the 2nd Coming of Christ. This will also mark the beginning of the final gathering of Israel.

All of the Old/New Testament prophecies indicate this order of events. The church formerly known as Mormon/LDS has mis-interpreted those Biblical prophecies to their own ends.

The Christian religion today is exactly as God allows/permits it to be until He deems it the proper time to change things.

ETA: Just realized this sounds kind of authoritative.....somebody stop me!

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:07 am ETA: Just realized this sounds kind of authoritative.....somebody stop me!

It has literally been a full century since any LDS prophet canonized new revelation. Having someone speak authoritatively is only jarring because so little is done in official channels. I might not pay tithing to you, but I'll gladly buy you a drink if we meet.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:08 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:07 am ETA: Just realized this sounds kind of authoritative.....somebody stop me!

It has literally been a full century since any LDS prophet canonized new revelation. Having someone speak authoritatively is only jarring because so little is done in official channels. I might not pay tithing to you, but I'll gladly buy you a drink if we meet.

Don't say that!!!

They'll accuse me of wanting followers, even if it's only to the local pub...

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:08 am

It has literally been a full century since any LDS prophet canonized new revelation.

Hey wait! Wasn't the revelation on priesthood canonized in the D&C?

The early church had apostles. We have apostles. That is as far as most members need to go to draw parallels.

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:13 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:08 am

It has literally been a full century since any LDS prophet canonized new revelation.

Hey wait! Wasn't the revelation on priesthood canonized in the D&C?

I don't want to be ungrateful for whatever "revelation" comes out. But "Official Declaration 2" in 1978 was simply the declaration that revelation was received. We never actually got the text of that revelation. And it certainly was not canonized. At this point every apologist is sighing and annoyed at how I am splitting hairs. But OD2 was just stapled at the end of the scriptures. It was not added to the Doctrine and Covenants as section 139. "But I am looking for messengers from my Father", as one dramatization allegedly put it. If you don't put it in a canonized book of scripture, then the inspiration I am confident I had last week is just as good as anything out of any prophet, seer, and revelator in the past century.

Adding new scripture and new revelation was the great promise of having a Doctrine and Covenants. Not to put too fine a point on this argument, LDS leadership, but those upstarts calling themselves Community of Christ make this a prominent feature during the tenure of each prophet and church president. Study and pray for guidance for years to put in the Doctrine and Covenants and then openly publish it to the world in a way that is not easily retracted.

This is no "Journal of Discourses" sleight of hand where "speaking as a man" crops up all too often. It's not some conference talk that gets embarrassing as years go by and can be ignored by no longer talking about it. If Stephen Veazy says something crazy and the COC membership votes it in, this message will be sticking around for the long haul.

Prove me wrong, President Nelson! Make this coming general conference weekend a breathtaking spectacle where revelation pours out like an Arizona flash flood. Show all of those fence sitters, skeptics, cynics, apostates, liberals, and especially those NOMs that the day of miracles and revelation has not ceased. Say something that withstands the test of time with a transcendent prescience that makes my wife smugly ask when I'm going to repent and return to full belief.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:54 pm
Prove me wrong, President Nelson! Make this coming general conference weekend a breathtaking spectacle where revelation pours out like an Arizona flash flood. Show all of those fence sitters, skeptics, cynics, apostates, liberals, and especially those NOMs that the day of miracles and revelation has not ceased. Say something that withstands the test of time with a transcendent prescience that makes my wife smugly ask when I'm going to repent and return to full belief.

I see where you're coming from on this issue.

There really should be a "Thus saith the Lord" heading up an actual verbal directive for the priesthood change.

Especially in light of the many inferences by apostles that there was a literal visitation that occurred. Of course none of those anecdotes were delivered in conference talks. Only in stake meetings where we know recordings are verboten....

As far as expecting something the caliber of a Mosaic statement from Nelson???

These boys are clouds without rain. All promise and no delivery. They're pi$$ing in our boots and tellin' us it's rainin'.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:54 pm Not to put too fine a point on...

"Not to put too fine a point on it, say I'm the only bee in your bonnet!" TMBG

Thanks for getting the song stuck in my head!

It's actually a favorite.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:54 pm Not to put too fine a point on...

"Not to put too fine a point on it, say I'm the only bee in your bonnet!" TMBG

Thanks for getting the song stuck in my head!

It's actually a favorite.

Shows how old I am......never heard of it...

felixfabulous wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:09 am I enjoy perusing the more liberal Christian literature (Marcus Borg, Richard Rohr, Rob Bell) and listen to some podcasts (Robcast, Bible for Normal People). The general consensus among scholars seems to be: 1. Jesus lived and died a good Jew, meaning he did not set up a Church, based on what is in the NT; 2. The early Christian movement was comprised of good Jews, who saw it as a part of Judaism, not its own religion, the split occurred in the early 100s (when the gospel of John was written and it reflects this tension in the numerous confrontations between Jesus and Jewish leaders); 3. The early Christian Church was not what we think of as a Church and was very loosely organized and the sacrament was more of a potluck dinner; 4. The institutional Christian Church came much later and in connection with Constantine. Also, we need to confront the difficult truth that FiveFingerMnemonic points out that restorationism was all the rage at the time of Joseph Smith and restoration churches were popping up all over.

"I'm Jesus, and I approve this message"

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:24 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:54 pm Not to put too fine a point on...

"Not to put too fine a point on it, say I'm the only bee in your bonnet!" TMBG

Thanks for getting the song stuck in my head!

It's actually a favorite.

Shows how old I am......never heard of it...

Ah snap! Well then, here ya go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhjSzjoU7OQ

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:05 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:24 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 pm

"Not to put too fine a point on it, say I'm the only bee in your bonnet!" TMBG

Thanks for getting the song stuck in my head!

It's actually a favorite.

Shows how old I am......never heard of it...

Ah snap! Well then, here ya go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhjSzjoU7OQ

Hmmm....

Guess this sort of thing wouldn't interest you?

https://youtu.be/ZtHAD3AMzPo

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:20 am
Guess this sort of thing wouldn't interest you?

https://youtu.be/ZtHAD3AMzPo

They Might Be Giants are just strange, quirky and fun. Clampton, that's just good old rockn R&B!

If JS really did restore the original church then isn’t Warren Jeffs the real prophet?