NOM

John Dehlin shared this video in FB a while back:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlbUw5hjeKI

As a parent of young kids it was mind expanding to say the least. The post about the recent Kirby article stating that the "roof was ripped off his factory without his cosent" (or something like that) reminded me of this video. I've heard Dan Wotherspoon and other nuanced "believers" say that they are okay with raising TBM children so long as they create space for them to transition beyond Fowler stage 3 as adolescents. I could see that on a liberal denomination that makes that sort of space, but I can't see that being an ideal path in LDS culture. Moving past stage 3 in the LDS church is a tough path to follow, as you all know.

What do you all think of the video?

Thanks for sharing the video. It's scary how close this hits home for me. Not wanting to indoctrinate my children was a huge catalyst to my family finally taking the steps to leaving the church.

I recommend all the videos by TheraminTrees. They are great for deconstructing religious belief.

We would probably have happier Presidential elections if public education would indoctrinate all students into the true political party, whichever one it is.

I remember this. Truly this brings up my biggest conundrum. As an adult I can navigate through this BS but I don't know if it is fair to perpetuate it to my kids. I refuse to let them discover this stuff after a mission, temple wedding, BYU degree, and way too much tithing. If they want to go down this route with all the information and of their own volition, that is fine. But it is not right to allow them to be duped the way generations have been by the COJCOLDS.

The hard part is a mostly TBM DW who doesn't rrally see the same or even know this stuff yet. I guess task #1 is to help her see the data her self. I've got some work to do.

I agree with you, MalcomVillager, my kids were my bggest concern. Upon learning the real church history I felt betrayed by the church, but not by my family, my local church leaders, seminary teachers, etc. because at the time they would have had no way of knowing themselves. My kids, however, would have every reason to feel betrayed by me personally if I knew the problems but continued to perpetuate the lies and the toxic teaching of shame, especially to my daughters.

One thing that I think helped my wife be willing to dig into the issues was helping her to understand this. Also, pointing out to her that she could choose not to read real church history, but in all probability our children one day would. Then they would come ask her about it and she would have nothing to say to them. At that point she could still refuse to talk or learn the issues, leaving them to feel as alone, isolated and depressed about it as I had been, and they leave the church and damage her relationship with them, or she could learn all the issues at that time; or she could learn now and if she still thinks it's true, she would be able to help me and them stay in the church.

My son's birth was the catalyst for my shelf breaking.

Concerns about indoctrination, and especially the additional harm a future daughter might face, has me extremely uneasy about having any more kids while the church is still in our lives. My wife is an extremely liberal TBM who has expressed a willingness to 1) let me share my feelings on spiritual issues that conflict with the church, and 2) let the kid(s) stay home when and if they choose. This is great; it keeps me from being completely in despair.

However, my wife still wants to take our son to church. I have a couple concerns about this:

1) Baptism
I wanted to be baptized when I was 8, but I also didn't at all understand the theological, cultural, and social commitments I was making. I had been indoctrinated that it was cool to be baptized, so I wanted to do it. Simple as that. It's like, I can't claim to have been forced to do it, but at the same time, I wasn't exactly given a choice of life path.

I've also seen how the church members talk about parents who won't give their consent for their child to be baptized at such a young age. Now it makes all the sense in the world to me, but I was right with all the TBMs thinking it was so sad that a father would deny his kids baptism just because he was a sinner.

My son is only 2.5, but when this starts to become relevant, I think I will try to find a middle ground. I won't strictly forbid his getting baptized, but I will express how much I wished that I had waited until I felt I was actually making the decision for myself rather than just because it was what I was *supposed* to do. During my TBM days, I often expressed jealousy of converts, who had chosen this path rather than had it prescribed to them. I'll tell him (truthfully) that I believe this will be a much more meaningful decision for him the longer he waits to make it.

Of course, he'll still probably want to get baptized. I know how primary works.

2) Bishop's interviews
I feel like one of the most important things I can do as a parent is to never, ever allow my son (or especially a potential future daughter) to be alone with a man in a room asking about his sexual/masturbatory habits. I've mentioned it to my wife, but I'm not sure she really realizes the depths of my concern in this area. It's a decade away, though, so it's not really quite the point where I should push the issue.

Enoch Witty wrote: 1) Baptism
I wanted to be baptized when I was 8, but I also didn't at all understand the theological, cultural, and social commitments I was making. I had been indoctrinated that it was cool to be baptized, so I wanted to do it. Simple as that. It's like, I can't claim to have been forced to do it, but at the same time, I wasn't exactly given a choice of life path.

I get this. I don't think most eight-year olds really have any idea what's going on. None of my kids have been baptized yet, but at Thanksgiving, my MIL asked my five-year old son about it, and I got a really sick feeling. So I've been thinking about it, and at this point, I think that if he wants to be baptized, whatever. He's still young, wanting to fit in with the other kids, he'll want to have cupcakes or whatever afterward. Kids at that age often still like church. I don't think it will last however. Church gets really boring really fast and by the time he's a teenager, he'll probably be happy to have a parent like me who doesn't push it. I worry a little more about the priesthood ordinations, because that's when I feel I'll lose him. Maybe it's a male/female thing.

Enoch Witty wrote: 2) Bishop's interviews
I feel like one of the most important things I can do as a parent is to never, ever allow my son (or especially a potential future daughter) to be alone with a man in a room asking about his sexual/masturbatory habits. I've mentioned it to my wife, but I'm not sure she really realizes the depths of my concern in this area. It's a decade away, though, so it's not really quite the point where I should push the issue.

So I don't get why my husband doesn't see this as a problem. He thinks I'm weird. Last time we discussed it it went like this: "Brother X can't teach a dozen twelve-year old boys AND girls in his Sunday school class, that has a window on the door, without another adult, because something bad might happen. But if he gets called to be bishop next week, we send each of those twelve-year olds, boys AND girls into his office, closed door, no window, to have a conversation with him, alone, about sex. And that's not weird?" And my husband tells me I'm making something out of nothing, which I find all the more strange since it was his first twelve-year old interview with the bishop when he was told what masturbation is and was so terribly embarrassed.

My adult children have been able to navigate their own religious (or irreligious) beliefs and spiritual course well enough. Both harmful and helpful influences growing up can be undone, irrespective of our wishes.

moksha wrote:My adult children have been able to navigate their own religious (or irreligious) beliefs and spiritual course well enough. Both harmful and helpful influences growing up can be undone, irrespective of our wishes.

This is a great point. I often have to remind myself that my son has agency. It's easy to forget when he's only two.

desertrat wrote:I've heard Dan Wotherspoon and other nuanced "believers" say that they are okay with raising TBM children so long as they create space for them to transition beyond Fowler stage 3 as adolescents. I could see that on a liberal denomination that makes that sort of space, but I can't see that being an ideal path in LDS culture. Moving past stage 3 in the LDS church is a tough path to follow, as you all know.

The LDS church will not be big fans of creating Fowler stage 4,5, or (heaven forbid) 6 people. They will not be very adept at stopping it, but I am hoping for some kind of space for agnostic Mormons and strictly cultural Mormons.

This has been a significant goal for my children also. I have some good evidence of this working so far, although having my older child formally announce that she is gay has been very helpful.