Wonderment wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:08 pm
So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended?
This is from the old school of rape counseling that says that the victim is to blame for doing something wrong; otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. It's her fault, because he took her for being an easy mark, because she didn't speak out. The complete onus is on her, because she did the wrong thing.
I strongly disagree. Why isn't the burden on him for not asking consent? "Hey, we're at Sunstone, where we are not supposed to be constrained by traditional Mormon ideas of sexual propriety, so why don't we role play that you're a sex worker, and I'll give you some drugs to "relax" you??
Why isn't the burden on him to ask for consent rather than assume she is an easy mark?
When rape victims are told, "Well, the man will assume you are an easy mark, unless you speak up", in old school counseling, we never ask ourselves "WHY", would he assume that? Is it because of his patriarchal entitlement to believe that he knows what women are thinking? His patriarchal entitlement to sex? No one ever confronts the man -- " Did you ask for consent, or did you just suddenly decide that the conversation would be about sex with a sex worker who needed drugs, and whom you could later characterize as the butt of a joke for being as easy mark? "
Perhaps saying I hold her partly at “fault” is incorrect. Perhaps “ responsible” is better? She is responsible the same way a jewlrey store owner is responsible to put the diamond rings in a locked case. Not fault, but responsible.
And, second of all, I was a professional rape victim counselor for several years. What, pray tell, is your real experience in this field? Ever been a counselor to rape victims? Ever even been raped? Or just know key words in this topic?
I read what RAPISTS say will help prevent rape. I am not “old school” any more than you are a blooming I....
I spent more time in counseling my rape victims on rape prevention than I ever did with “it wasn’t your fault.” What they all wanted to know was prevention, as well as the idea that nothing they did made them *****deserve****** what happened. See, “fault” wasn’t the issue so much as, “did I deserve it?” They KNEW they did nothing to want rape, but were they the kind of person who deserves it? shame as opposed to guilt. They felt no guilt! But tons of shame. Shame as in this has turned me into a licked cupcake, not that I did anything wrong, but I am now a licked cupcake. Shame. What I am, not what I did
Which is perhaps why I used a word that came out wrong.
There is a BIG difference between blame and doing what you can for PREVENTION. You know, even more than the victims wanted to be told that it was not their fault, they wanted to be told how to prevent rape from happening again. Well, I just told you one way to prevent rape, and you go into your feminist goblelty gook. No, it is Never, never, never the victims fault. But there are things you can do to make yourself a less likely victim, Sorry, but there is such a thing as risk avoidance. And women need to be taught what is high risk behavior and what lowers the risk.
It is like a store owner is never at fault for shop lifter’s behavior. But they still keep diamond rings is a locked case. They have a responsibility to keep the rings locked up to prevent theft. That is lowering their risk. This woman was like the shop keeper who puts diamond rings in on open basket where no one can see if someone picks up one. Was the store owner at fault? No, but they were sure as hell stupid.
Sitting silently and letting someone walk all over your boundaries does not make you at fault for what happens. But if you want it to happen over and over, just reassure yourself it is not your fault and that it is just that all men are ass hats. And I can promise you it is going to keep happening. Because the reality is that some men are AHs.
I said this young woman needs to learn to stand up for herself and I stand by what I said. It wasn’t her FAULT, but she is responsible for her boundaries. No body else is ever going to enforce her boundaries. She has to learn to do it. It is HER responsibility to learn to enforce her boundaries. Not just whine to the media when her boundaries are violated. What Kirby said was no crime. It was tactless and a violation of any females boundaries. But your boundaries are your responsibility to maintain. That may be harsh, but it is real life.
The TRUTH is that rapists often check out their victim. Will she take sexist jokes. Will she let the man order for her in a restaurant. Will she put up with him touching her. Or does she push back? Doesn’t make raper her fault if she gets raped. It is just one way to lower her risk.
My clients who had been raped didn’t want me to tell them that it wasn’t their fault. They wanted to know how to lower their risk of it happening again. Then they could stop living in terror. Yes, we worked on any self blame the victim had, because sometimes that was an issue. But what struck me as backwards was the women who had gone to the bar and met the guy one week out of prison and took him home, she had less self blame than the 86 year old in her own bed at 2 in the morning. She knew her behavior was stupid and knew never to do that again. But the woman who truly did nothing that was at all a risk, she was the one who asked over and over and over, “why did he pick me?” “What did I do wrong?” “What did I do?”
Our society has got to BOTH teach women to avoid risky behavior, AND teach women that they are never at fault for men”s choices.
I get SOOOOO sick of fellow feminists who have never been raped talking about we shouldn’t tell women to X, Y, or Z because then when they are raped they will blame themselves. No, we SHOULD teach women to push back when men say crap because that is what rapist tell us is most likely to prevent rape. We NEED to teach women to stand up for themselves because rapists look for women who don’t. We SHOULD tell women not to drink at frat parties, and to use a buddy system, and to never let their drink out of their sight, and all the REAL things women can do to reduce their risk. As far as what she was wearing, rapist say they are more likely to pick the woman who is overly modest, so we don’t teach that modesty prevents rape cause it doesn’t.
And we need to speak out about rape culture that blames women for men’s choices. But there is a difference between not knowing how, not understanding a situation is dangerous, and it being your fault. People who don’t get that difference are part of the problem. The victim is never at fault, but honestly, some of my rape victims were stupid, just like it s stupid not to put the diamond rings in a locked case. But, no, they were not at fault. But if they know better and still engage in high risk behavior, hey, I was honest with my clients and if they repeatedly engaged in high risk behavior, then I told them so. I held them responsible to take care f themselves to the best of their ability. Some didn’t. But they still were not at fault. Just engaging in high risk behavior.
Our society is realistic about teaching the jewelry store owners to lower their risk of being robbed but somehow it has become politically incorrect to teach women to lower their risk of sexual assault.
