NOM

So, I've been teasing this story for a while, now in the mood and have the time to tell it. Crucial details left out, of course.

And I want to make sure that ya'll know that my SP friend is not the villain of the story, I think we all know who that will be. I also apologize for the length, but it's a good story.

So after being released as the GD teacher and having no calling for a while, it's time to get the old TR renewed, which for reasons I need right now. I breeze through the Bishop interview, he gets the NOM way and has some time for me, then I'm off to see the new SP, who is also a good friend. It doesn't start well, as he uses the "a" word right off the hopper, and not a-hole either. I'm a bit taken aback, and basically say, how do you know I'm an apostate, and you haven't even started the interview yet? So he reluctantly starts, and I basically give all my NOM answers, pretty truthfully, as I've done for the last 6 years, and he doesn't want to give me a TR at the end of it. So I start asking why, and he says I don't believe. I say that's true, I don't believe LIKE YOU, I have nuanced beliefs, but this is how things are going to be run in your stake? Are you going after apathetic members next? Everyone has to believe in a literal BOM people, that leaders make no mistakes? These are the only true TR holding members that will pass? I was pretty ticked. So I started asking him about the essays, about Bushman's book, the JS papers project and all where I'm getting my information from, NOT ANTI-MORMON SOURCES, and basically prove my point, which he has little clue about. This lasted about another half an hour, and then I realize what am I doing? I need this TR right now. So I basically say, "Lookit, I know you aren't doing this personally, this is not about me, it's clear you don't really know what to do and I know you just want to do the right thing. But is taking away my TR the right thing?" This thawed the room by about 100 degrees, which gave me the space to ask, so who's pushing for this really? Turns out, my old friend the HP group leader who is now in the stake, is STILL pushing to have me kicked out of the Mormon club. So then we turned to what the handbook says about apostasy - the repeated public opposition to the church or its leaders. So I say, have I been public, or has this idiot MADE my thoughts public? I've been pretty quiet, I just sit and don't give anyone a hard time in class or otherwise. He again reluctantly agrees, that's not what I'm doing. Even more importantly, I'm not addressing my concerns with ANYBODY other than my priesthood leaders - I'm not searching out the "weak links" to damage their testimonies, or anything of the sort, to which again he reluctantly agrees.

So I say, why don't you give this some thought, talk to one of your higher ups, talk to people who know me, and see if this is really the right thing to do. To his credit, he does this, and while we have two other meetings I don't want to talk about, he eventually signs the recommend. I take his testimony with good grace, because I have what I need and leave. And I think, good friends again. Which is important to me, and I think, to him.

Fast forward a few months, he calls me in with Sis M. I think its a calling for Sis M, she's a good lass. He then calls me to the HC. I'm stunned, that a few months earlier I'm on the chopping block, and now this? I think it's a credit to him, and having seen him in action now, it's pretty clear he thinks some changes in the hardline fundamentalist faction need to occur, and so he welcomes my point of view. So I had a choice to make - do I refuse, or do I try to help change things from within? It took me a while to figure this out, but I realized that there are still waaaay too many hardliners in places of leadership, and that needs to be blunted with a voice like mine. Maybe not for my own kids' sake, they get it and they are much older, but for some of the others. So while I made a few provisos in what I was willing to do or say, I eventually accepted. And frankly, it's been a good experience thus far - I say no when I have too, I make comments that clearly cut across the fundamentalist line and they just listen, it's not been too bad. Slamming the Miracle of Forgiveness in one meeting was the highlight, thus far. But I've been impressed with my friend, and if all Mormons were like this guy, the church wouldn't be in the state it's in. But he's the exception, not the rule, and the problems start at the top.

In any event, if you're still with me wish me luck as I haven't been in this position in over a decade, I still hate meetings, but now the gloves are off and I'm willing to say what needs to be said. We'll see how long it lasts!

Wow, that is quite a story! I really like they way you handled the interview and that he didn't just shut down and listened to you; that is a rare thing in the higher priesthood positions at the Ward and Stake level. Good luck walking that line and I really hope you can effect some change, it sounds like you will.

That's a very interesting turn of events. I am increasingly skeptical that any real change will come from the inside. But I haven't left yet either.

Do you have some limits on what you will and won't do as a member of the HC? Are there talk subjects you will not accept? Are there duties you will not abide? Are there disciplinary councils where you will stand apart from the other 14 authority figures in the room?

That is definitely a fascinating story.

I actually think HC is a position that could be fulfilled as a NOM. Yes. You have to speak on a regular basis, but what you actually say is up to you and you are not give a word for word script.

As a member of the HC you are actually in a service role and not in a direct leadership role having to tell others how to be and what to obey. So you can serve as you deem fit.

And then your voice is one of 12, which is what your SP is looking for.

Good for you.

I have never served on the HC. I did do 4 years as the HPGL while being a NOM and focused exclusively on service and calling out crazy when it happened.

Good luck!!!

Wow, Mormorrisey. That is all I can say.

The honesty. The truth. The strange turn of events when a leader questions giving a TR and then calling you the HC instead.

I salute you, sir.

...Wow.

It's interesting what happens when the Church (TBM) culture bumps up against reality. I admire you for your clear thought and action. We do believe differently from each other. Also, I'm glad my name isn't being considered for High Council.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:59 am I am increasingly skeptical that any real change will come from the inside.

Same here, at least in any big way. But, maybe some change for even one individual is enough while Mormorrisey can bear to serve on the HC.

One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.

Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, “I’m saving these starfish, Sir”.

The old man chuckled aloud, “Son, there are thousands of starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”

The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, “I made a difference to that one!”

(as recounted here)

You go Mormorrisey!

Wow this is a stunning turn of events. Good for you that you can handle it because HC was what really pushed me over the line. I couldn't stand another second sitting on the stand, giving HC talks, and most importantly, I never want to be a part of disciplinary councils ever again.

Good for you Mormorrisey to take on the challenge of doing what is right. Kudos also to your Stake President for not letting himself be a tool for someone with a grudge.

Best wishes in bringing enlightenment to an institution sometimes run in an automaton-like manner.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:59 am That's a very interesting turn of events. I am increasingly skeptical that any real change will come from the inside. But I haven't left yet either.

Do you have some limits on what you will and won't do as a member of the HC? Are there talk subjects you will not accept? Are there duties you will not abide? Are there disciplinary councils where you will stand apart from the other 14 authority figures in the room?

I'm skeptical too, but you just never know. I was the wacko liberal bishop who didn't listen anyways, so I'm sure most leadership in this area is used to how I am, just less "believing." I've been absent for nearly a decade under the old SP clown, so they just might not remember how I am.

And yes, I made a list of things I'm concerned with. I told him there will be some talks I simply can't give, and I'll let him know personally and him alone, and he can make another assignment. And I definitely let him know that disciplinary councils are a relic of early modern Calvinism, and I'm not going to be very pliable, especially on apostasy matters. And lastly, I said that if it became clear that this wasn't working, I would have no compunction in asking for a release, and the same could go for him; when he had enough, just release me. Easy peasy. Again, a lot of credit to my friend for being willing to put up with me - time will tell on his patience. But so far, so good.

Thanks for all your kind thoughts, all.

But I think this story is mostly about a church leader who managed to change his mind, when confronted with the "facts" and not "inspiration" or dogmatic literalism. He should get most of the credit. And as I said, if there were more like him, things wouldn't be as bad.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:38 am Thanks for all your kind thoughts, all.

But I think this story is mostly about a church leader who managed to change his mind, when confronted with the "facts" and not "inspiration" or dogmatic literalism. He should get most of the credit. And as I said, if there were more like him, things wouldn't be as bad.

I was on the high council when I went through some of the worst of my crisis. It was hard because I did not feel like the SP would be sympathetic to my concerns. It sounds like you are in a pretty good place.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:10 am In any event, if you're still with me wish me luck...

Good Luck!

As other's have said: Wow.

I couldn't even spin the narrative to 12-year-old's when when reality came crashing in for me. HC? No way I could ever do that in a buh-zillion years...

*finishes reading* *finishes shaking and sweating profusely* Whoa. That was wild as hell. Congrats! Our man on the inside, Mormorrisey doing that good deep cover work. Knock 'em dead.

Wow, I am impressed with both how you handled the interview and that your SP can handle the cognitive dissonance that you had to have stirred up in his head and come around to accepting a nuanced believer.

I think that t is possible for a man to change things from the inside, even if it is just to change how nuanced believers are handled in one ward. And your influence will make a difference in the church as a whole. I look at it like temperature. If you change the temperature of one area of a system, it spreads to the whole system. Perhaps it doesn’t change quickly or make a big difference by the time it spreads through the system, but each change adds up.

I tried for years to change how abuse/rape victims are treated. I even took some of my clients and talked to a general authority. Each bishop or stake president I talked to, I think I made it so the next person that priesthood leader came into contact with would not get blamed or shamed. I know I made a difference in several women’s lives. But after a while, people burn out. There is an emotional cost each time you have to take a stand, or explain again, then again, then again. So, take care of yourself.

Is it also possible the Stake Pres is attempting to keep a close eye on you? Or perhaps thinking this might spark re-conversion?

On the HC, you have to share hour testimony a lot with wards you visit. What do you say?

Amazing. Maybe there should be a rule that every HC should have X% members who had lost or nearly lost their recommend because they were accused of apostasy.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:21 pm Is it also possible the Stake Pres is attempting to keep a close eye on you? Or perhaps thinking this might spark re-conversion?

Both are possibilities. I know Sis M. thinks the latter, and I'm not going to dissuade this line of thinking. It keeps the peace, even if the chances are beyond slim to none.

Jeez.
*snaps fingers*
You go girlfriend!
As others have said, I don't think I could do this, but I am glad there is someone like you trying to make a difference. I think the biggest challenge I see is that when I hear high council speaker, I groaned and went to sleep. So, keep it lively out there...