Is there still good in the church?

[2bizE]

I have progressed in my testimony to the point I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church is not true. But, is there good from remaining a member?
I believe the church is just as true as the Rotary Club, Kiwanis, Freemasons, Shriners, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Elks, Knight Templar, etc. These are all organizations that have something to offer as well as require a financial commitment/membership. For many of these groups, relationships of trust are developed with other people that can be useful for business and other economics. The church of Ziontology is no different. Each of these organizations offer a specific area of focus: business, friendship, skills, networking. I suppose the church offers some of these things as well as religion. Not everyone cares for religion though, as it is a big turnoff for many.
If thinking of the church as a place for friendship, networking, and other business aspects, is it good to keep a membership?

[deacon blues]

I like the way the church organizes service. It certainly helps some people who need it. Love, forgiveness, and duty are two things that motivate us to be better. The Church also harms people who need help. Guilt, cognitive dissonance, and pride cause people to harm others. The Church encourages all those human traits, both the positive and the negative.

[Dravin]

I have progressed in my testimony to the point I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church is not true. But, is there good from remaining a member?
I believe the church is just as true as the Rotary Club, Kiwanis, Freemasons, Shriners, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Elks, Knight Templar, etc. These are all organizations that have something to offer as well as require a financial commitment/membership. For many of these groups, relationships of trust are developed with other people that can be useful for business and other economics. The church of Ziontology is no different. Each of these organizations offer a specific area of focus: business, friendship, skills, networking. I suppose the church offers some of these things as well as religion. Not everyone cares for religion though, as it is a big turnoff for many.
If thinking of the church as a place for friendship, networking, and other business aspects, is it good to keep a membership?

Members can be fairly cliquish and so being a member can be useful for networking purposes, for instance it's great if you are interested in engaging in affinity fraud! Okay, to be more serious, in places like Utah or Idaho I could see being a member of the in-group to be useful for social networking purposes. Generally speaking though I think the good things that the church offers can be found elsewhere with fewer negatives.

[blazerb]

I think, as has been mentioned, the social benefits of the church are pretty big in certain areas. It's nice to move into an area and know who to call for help unloading the truck. It is well known that it is hard for adults to make friends. Church gives a social outlet. Unfortunately, that sociality can come with a load of baggage.

I used to think that the morals of the church were uniquely good. Now that I look back on it, I see that my non-member friends growing up turned out just fine. We did not need the guilt to create good standards.

[wtfluff]

To quote the usual quotable quote:

That which is unique about LDS-Inc. is not good.

That which is good about LDS-Inc. is not unique.

There are quite a few folks who believe that the good does not outweigh the bad. Since actual activity rates are dismal, I'd venture a guess that the majority of LDS-Inc. "members" are in this camp.

[dogbite]

Why does it matter if there is some good in the church? I don't see the question leading anywhere worth going.

If good is the metric, the time, energy, money in lds could be far better applied.

So good in the church is a false metric; it's some form of justification gamemanship, not about good itself.

[slavereeno]

Why does it matter if there is some good in the church?

DW and I were having this conversation earlier. I have grown much more negative about the church over the past year or so, you can see this in my posts. She pointed out that I rarely if ever have anything but bile to spew about the church.

Its not all bad, that's an absolute that doesn't make sense even to me me in my bitter state right now. Finding the good for me would really help mend some fences in my marriage.

[Thoughtful]

I don't think the church holds any good for me.

I think the church holds some good for my parents. Mom was a SAHM all her life, and she derives a lot of meaning and social connection from church. She tries really hard to do well in her primary calling, love the children and their families, and be a good person. My dad gets an ego boost from being called as a temple worker and he likes it. It fits their worldview and doesn't harm them, it works for them. I don't feel like it causes them pain or dissonance even knowing some of the issues, they are able to enjoy it.

[Reuben]

I don't think the church holds any good for me.

I think the church holds some good for my parents. Mom was a SAHM all her life, and she derives a lot of meaning and social connection from church. She tries really hard to do well in her primary calling, love the children and their families, and be a good person. My dad gets an ego boost from being called as a temple worker and he likes it. It fits their worldview and doesn't harm them, it works for them. I don't feel like it causes them pain or dissonance even knowing some of the issues, they are able to enjoy it.

I like this. It acknowledges that whether the church is good for you depends quite a lot on your circumstances.

If my children weren't four square pegs, I would probably still be attending, finding the good, and teaching them to reject the bad. But square pegs historically haven't fared well, so I feel like I have to demonstrate to them that the church is entirely optional, in spite of its grandiose claims to the contrary.

It provides my wife community, meaning and validation. Now that she's a saved-by-grace Jesus chick in Fowler stage 4.5 or so, it tends to do her very little harm. In fact, it's a net positive for her, and she gives back to it and the people in it.

My lesbian/bi daughter has been put through a silent hell, and still wrestles with self-disgust and internalized homophobia. She would eventually be better off without it. I'm out mostly for her sake.

My aspie son thinks too much to buy into everything he's taught. He needs to be able to think for himself about important things and come to conclusions without the threat of rejection for coming to the "wrong" ones. He also needs permission to grow at his own pace, which the church in this area is actually pretty good about.

My next kid is brilliant, easily making distant connections and reasoning through complicated rules. She would probably wrestle with cognitive dissonance for years before finally dumping all the crap the church teaches from her mind. She needs a mental release valve and possibly an early out.

My last kid has developed mild OCD with the onset of puberty, and in no way needs to fill her head with more rules about what's dirty and what's not. The way the church teaches sin and judgment is frankly poisonous to her if it's not thoroughly corrected.

They all need community, and because we homeschool in a foreign country, the church is it. As a community, leaving aside the delusions of grandeur, it's actually a really good one.

My best guess is that the church is good for my wife and maybe my son and youngest daughter. It's obviously bad for my oldest daughter, and maybe a wash for my middle daughter.

[Thoughtful]

I don't think the church holds any good for me.

I think the church holds some good for my parents. Mom was a SAHM all her life, and she derives a lot of meaning and social connection from church. She tries really hard to do well in her primary calling, love the children and their families, and be a good person. My dad gets an ego boost from being called as a temple worker and he likes it. It fits their worldview and doesn't harm them, it works for them. I don't feel like it causes them pain or dissonance even knowing some of the issues, they are able to enjoy it.

I like this. It acknowledges that whether the church is good for you depends quite a lot on your circumstances.

If my children weren't four square pegs, I would probably still be attending, finding the good, and teaching them to reject the bad. But square pegs historically haven't fared well, so I feel like I have to demonstrate to them that the church is entirely optional, in spite of its grandiose claims to the contrary.

It provides my wife community, meaning and validation. Now that she's a saved-by-grace Jesus chick in Fowler stage 4.5 or so, it tends to do her very little harm. In fact, it's a net positive for her, and she gives back to it and the people in it.

My lesbian/bi daughter has been put through a silent hell, and still wrestles with self-disgust and internalized homophobia. She would eventually be better off without it. I'm out mostly for her sake.

My aspie son thinks too much to buy into everything he's taught. He needs to be able to think for himself about important things and come to conclusions without the threat of rejection for coming to the "wrong" ones. He also needs permission to grow at his own pace, which the church in this area is actually pretty good about.

My next kid is brilliant, easily making distant connections and reasoning through complicated rules. She would probably wrestle with cognitive dissonance for years before finally dumping all the crap the church teaches from her mind. She needs a mental release valve and possibly an early out.

My last kid has developed mild OCD with the onset of puberty, and in no way needs to fill her head with more rules about what's dirty and what's not. The way the church teaches sin and judgment is frankly poisonous to her if it's not thoroughly corrected.

They all need community, and because we homeschool in a foreign country, the church is it. As a community, leaving aside the delusions of grandeur, it's actually a really good one.

My best guess is that the church is good for my wife and maybe my son and youngest daughter. It's obviously bad for my oldest daughter, and maybe a wash for my middle daughter.

Yep. My son is way too smart to not see the issues, and was hurt by leaders gaslighting him about it. A huge loss of trust there and I don't think they can get him back. Incidentally, me deciding to leave seems to have been better for him than when he stopped attending.

Middle child is the one the pedo fixated on. She loves YW and the love bombing, but hates the sexism and nonsense. She doesn't think deeply about history or doctrine, but she won't stand for inequality of women or lgbt.

Youngest looks to have some significant anxiety and I think getting her away from church means she may not launch into full blown scrupulosity OCD.

I can't see it as a net positive for any of us. Spouseman was a different story though, it worked for him and probably still would if it weren't harming the rest of us.

[Not Buying It]

It has been said many times, but bears repeating - that which is good in the Church is not unique to the Church, and that which is unique to the Church is not good. Sure there is good in the Church, but nothing you can’t get elsewhere without all the baggage.

You pay a high price in time, money, unnecessary guilt, superfluous fear, mental servitude, being deceived and manipulated, being exploited for free labor, being infantilized, being subjugated to imaginary authority, and all kinds of other costs in order to get the good that the Church can offer. It can’t possibly be worth it.

[crossmyheart]

About 5 years ago I posted a response to an article in FMH or some other site. I cant exactly remember the article, but I remember what I said. In it I said that I no longer believed but that I was staying active for my daughter. To try to help make change from within to make it a better climate for her when she is older.

5 years later I am now completely inactive and my daughter rarely attends. The further away I get from that life, the more I see the toxicity leaking from every angle. I now can say that I am staying inactive for my daughter.

[Linked]

I have tried to have an unbiased view of the church, but I just can't. All I see is the creepy side of everything now. The high councilmen sitting on the stand went from friendly to menacing. The missionaries in the neighborhood have gone from fun to see to a sign of how much of a stranglehold the church has on my family. The camaraderie I used to feel with members of the church has turned into a reminder that I'm an imposter in their tribe. The cost of the good for me is so high that it is not worth it.

Also, all good in the church requires one to be exposed to the twisted worldview of the teachings and culture of the church.

[profit_seizer]

I found that it was just too hard to do actual good in the world through the political organizing I've been involved in, then go to a place that I feel does much less good in my community but to have that place claim to be the kingdom of God.

Well not to mention that I'm no longer a fan of either kingdoms or gods.

Getting involved in a cause you actually believe in is so so much better than sticking it out, if your circumstances allow.

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