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Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:02 am
by Linked
He brought this up at a family gathering yesterday. He is clearly, and appropriately, uncomfortable. His plan is to be as unspecific as possible, mostly just point out that having feelings is normal and good and ok, and refer the girls to their parents. I gave him some thoughts about including consent in any discussion of chastity, but had more thoughts after I left. He acknowledged that the church doesn't really explicitly address consent, and liked the idea of empowering girls to say no. However, he didn't think 12 and 13 year old girls are at the right age to discuss consent, other than how you would tell a child they don't have to hug people they don't want to. I was thinking about sending him an email with additional thoughts, like what I wrote below. Thoughts?
Hey DB,
I was thinking about your lesson for the Beehives coming up and had a couple more thoughts.
1 - A man should not be talking to young women about chastity at any time, this lesson should be taught by a compassionate woman.
2 - If the girls are too young to talk about consent are they old enough to talk about chastity?
A discussion about sex should not be had between young women and any man in the ward except their dads. This is grooming, it makes talking about sex with a random man normal. Your discomfort with this lesson is legitimate and appropriate. You are a smart, moral, good man and you can trust your feelings. I think you should work with the YW leadership to develop the lesson; they may not be comfortable putting the curriculum together so you can give your advice, but be sure to hear what they say back, as they have been YW more than you. Then the lesson should not have a man in the room. Some problems with the grooming in the church are highlighted in stories compiled by an active former bishop who realized there was harm coming to kids at this site:
http://protectldschildren.org/read-the-stories-2/
Consent is a huge deal. If the girls aren't old enough to discuss consent then are they old enough to discuss chastity at all? I guess if the point is just to point out that feelings are normal and you aren't actually discussing anything where 2 people are involved then consent isn't involved.
Anyway, just a couple thoughts...
Linked
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:24 am
by jfro18
I think your email is really good and I agree with it 100%
I do not think that girls should be getting sex talks at church - I think parents should be the ones giving it, but I know that's not how the church operates.
Hopefully it helps him - clearly he knows that it is not a lesson he should be giving, so maybe your comments will steer him in another direction to let the YW leaders give it so that everyone can be a bit more comfortable.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:39 am
by Red Ryder
When are the men of the church going to learn this stuff is creepy as fnck! Grown men and teenage girls talking about sex is wrong in every scenario! Yet they continue to do this.
Send him some of the real life stories from Sam Young's site.
Here's a perfect example of this creepiness!
About 2 years ago when my wife was in YWs the following event took place.
YW president visits the YW 2nd counselor.
YWP: Can you talk to the girls about modesty?
YW2: uh, why is there a problem?
YWP: Ummmm.... I hear some of the girls wear panties where the panty lines are too obvious.
YW2: what do you mean?
YWP: thongs.... They are wearing thongs.
YW2: who complained?
YWP: I don't want to say... The boys are distracted by it and it leads to inappropriate actions.
YW2: your kidding, right? What's really going on? Who complained?
YWP: it's Brother H (2nd counselor in the BP). He asked me to tell the girls not to wear thongs to church.
YW2: that's disgusting. Why is he looking at these girls like that. They are 12 and 13 years old. He's a creep!
YWP: Yeah... he kind of is.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:53 am
by jfro18
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:39 am
Here's a perfect example of this creepiness!
About 2 years ago when my wife was in YWs the following event took place.
YW president visits the YW 2nd counselor.
YWP: Can you talk to the girls about modesty?
YW2: uh, why is there a problem?
YWP: Ummmm.... I hear some of the girls wear panties where the panty lines are too obvious.
YW2: what do you mean?
YWP: thongs.... They are wearing thongs.
YW2: who complained?
YWP: I don't want to say... The boys are distracted by it and it leads to inappropriate actions.
YW2: your kidding, right? What's really going on? Who complained?
YWP: it's Brother H (2nd counselor in the BP). He asked me to tell the girls not to wear thongs to church.
YW2: that's disgusting. Why is he looking at these girls like that. They are 12 and 13 years old. He's a creep!
YWP: Yeah... he kind of is.
FFS... I have no words.
I would love to tell YW to enjoy wearing underwear now because once they find their worthy priesthood holder they are then going to be subjected to a life of ugly, uncomfortable clothing for eternity.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:06 pm
by Thoughtful
Consent is an interesting issue that no doubt the church wants to stay far away from because children *cannot* consent and that presents a BIG problem.
In my state, they cannot consent until age 16.
Science says maybe not even until older.
If children can't consent because their brains are not developed, they also cant really sin can they? Don't really need to repent. Worthiness interviews, repentance, confession are all pointless and may be harmful.
Huh. Much more useful to blame victims, circle the shame wagons, and keep people obedient and depending on leaders to absolve them of their humanity, eh?
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:25 am
by moksha
No mention of cupcakes whatsoever!
Why would a member of the bishopric be tasked to deliver such a lesson to the girls? Do boys get similar lessons?
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:46 am
by 2bizE
The church needs to get completely out of the sex business. This should be left to the parents.
I would purposefully pull her from class that day.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 am
by Linked
moksha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:25 am
No mention of cupcakes whatsoever!
Why would a member of the bishopric be tasked to deliver such a lesson to the girls? Do boys get similar lessons?
I agree with your questions. I am guessing that some bishop in DB's ward didn't want to make the YW leaders tackle a tough lesson, so he put it on the bishopric. Or they thought it would be more effective coming from priesthood leadership. Either way, bad idea.
Yes, the boys get similar lessons, though according to DB for the boys it's easier because they can get into the details more.
2bizE wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:46 am
The church needs to get completely out of the sex business. This should be left to the parents.
I would purposefully pull her from class that day.
All the parents were notified that this lesson is coming up and given an outline of the content, so that's good.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:55 am
by blazerb
2bizE wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:46 am
The church needs to get completely out of the sex business. This should be left to the parents.
I would purposefully pull her from class that day.
I agree, but the sex business is a core component of Mormonism. If they give it up, what's left?
Linked, I like the message you prepared.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:17 pm
by 2bizE
Linked wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 am
moksha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:25 am
No mention of cupcakes whatsoever!
Why would a member of the bishopric be tasked to deliver such a lesson to the girls? Do boys get similar lessons?
I agree with your questions. I am guessing that some bishop in DB's ward didn't want to make the YW leaders tackle a tough lesson, so he put it on the bishopric. Or they thought it would be more effective coming from priesthood leadership. Either way, bad idea.
Yes, the boys get similar lessons, though according to DB for the boys it's easier because they can get into the details more.
2bizE wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:46 am
The church needs to get completely out of the sex business. This should be left to the parents.
I would purposefully pull her from class that day.
All the parents were notified that this lesson is coming up and given an outline of the content, so that's good.
Sounds like more planning than usual was put into this lesson. I'm guessing the church feels a need to teach sex in church because not everyone has parents in the home, or parents that follow the church guidelines.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:33 pm
by Just This Guy
moksha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:25 am
Why would a member of the bishopric be tasked to deliver such a lesson to the girls? Do boys get similar lessons?
If the BP is teaching the beehives about sex, then a member of the RS presidency should be required to do it for the Deacons. Only fair.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:40 pm
by blazerb
Just This Guy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:33 pm
moksha wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:25 am
Why would a member of the bishopric be tasked to deliver such a lesson to the girls? Do boys get similar lessons?
If the BP is teaching the beehives about sex, then a member of the RS presidency should be required to do it for the Deacons. Only fair.
I think the women are abused in both situations. Not really fair.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:05 pm
by Dravin
Linked wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 am
All the parents were notified that this lesson is coming up and given an outline of the content, so that's good.
The response is unlikely to be an overwhelming, "That is hugely inappropriate, don't you dare broach that topic with my child." Which is bad.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:06 pm
by Linked
Thank you for all the replies! I sent him the letter below, adding a bit about how girls are not responsible for the actions of boys.
Hi DB,
I was thinking about your lesson for the Beehives coming up and had a couple more thoughts.
1 - A man should not be talking to young women about chastity at any time, this lesson should be taught by an empathetic woman (as opposed to an empathetic man, gender matters here).
2 - If the girls are too young to talk about consent are they old enough to talk about chastity?
A discussion about sex should not be had between young women and any man in the ward except their dads. This is grooming, it makes talking about sex with a random man normal. Your discomfort with this lesson is legitimate and appropriate. You are a smart, moral, good man and you can trust your feelings. I think you should work with the YW leadership to develop the lesson; they may not be comfortable putting the curriculum together so you can give your advice, but be sure to hear what they say back, as they have been YW more than you. Then the lesson should not have a man in the room. Some problems with the grooming in the church are highlighted in stories compiled by an active former bishop who realized there was harm coming to kids at this site:
http://protectldschildren.org/read-the-stories-2/
Consent is a huge deal. If the girls aren't old enough to discuss consent then are they old enough to discuss chastity at all? I guess if the point is just to point out that feelings are normal and you aren't actually discussing anything where 2 people are involved then consent isn't involved. Related to consent is making sure the girls know that they are not responsible for what the boys do. Boys are responsible for themselves. Girls will be punished for their own sins, and not for boys transgressions. Girls should not feel like it is their fault a boy does something bad because of what they are wearing or their what they look like. Mom dealt with this growing up. She felt like she had to wear big baggy clothes all the time so she wouldn't get cat called because of an experience she had as a young teenager. We tend to put the responsibility of boys good behavior on the girls, and it isn't right. From victim blaming girls for getting raped to cat called to boys masturbating; these are behaviors of the boys, not the girls, and the boys need to be the ones to fix it.
Anyway, just a couple thoughts...
Linked
Dravin wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:05 pm
Linked wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 am
All the parents were notified that this lesson is coming up and given an outline of the content, so that's good.
The response is unlikely to be an overwhelming, "That is hugely inappropriate, don't you dare broach that topic with my child." Which is bad.
Fair point, but I'll take notification over not. Hopefully TBMs can start to understand what the big deal is eventually.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:44 pm
by A New Name
Yes, the boys may get the same lesson, even with more detail, but is it given by a WOMAN? Just picture that for a moment, a woman giving the lesson, and you'll see why a man giving it to girls is so wrong.
Re: Bishopric Brother Scheduled to Teach Chastity to Beehives
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:33 pm
by Linked
A New Name wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:44 pm
Yes, the boys may get the same lesson, even with more detail, but is it given by a WOMAN? Just picture that for a moment, a woman giving the lesson, and you'll see why a man giving it to girls is so wrong.
Of course not, women don't have the priesthood responsibility to talk about sex to kids (/s). I think the more detail thing is a bit alarming as well.