The church isn't going to disappear but they are definitely not vibrant and healthy

[hiding in plain sight]

A little over 8 years ago, my RM son told me he no longer believed and was leaving the church. 1 down in the HIPS family.

I dove in deep to get the good answers and save his soul. 2 down in the HIPS family.

2 years ago my youngest RM son told me he wasn't getting married in the temple and married a mormon girl who had never really been active and how they both don't believe and are out. 4 down in the HIPS family.

Last year my SIL told me that he never has really like church and he was going to go inactive. 5 down in the HIPS family.

My daughter did what I did and dove in deep to find the answers so she could protect her kids. 8 down in the HIPS family.

The only ones left are my very NOM wife and my youngest daughter and other SIL, who just recently got tattoos. I am not sure how deep in they are, but I won't be surprised if in a few years it will be 10 down in the HIPS family.

And this doesn't include nieces and nephews openly telling the family that they no longer believe.

The church definitely hasn't found the right answers to stop the hemorrhaging. And it even seems that their attempts at weak answers are actually causing it to speed up.

All the best.

[Hermey]

Hearing this warms my cold apostate heart. I resigned. My three children (21, 18, and 15yrs.) have all resigned. This leaves my NOM wife. She is alone on the island, but doesn't want to disappoint or upset her mother. Her mother was just diagnosed with an aggressive cancer which has spread into the lymph nodes, stage 4 - and she's 84 yrs. old. The odds are not in her favor. Her mother has 13 grandchildren, 8 out of 13 are out and no longer believe.

"Houston, we have a problem."

[Red Ryder]

Take one down pass it around..... 38 members of the church on the wall. Take one down pass it around.... 37 members of the church on the wall!

HIPS, it's good to see you here again. You were always right when it came to dealing with the dynamics of a mixed faith marriage. Glad to see your patience and loyalty to your family is paying off!

Out of six kids in my mormon family, 3 of us are non believers. Each independently had our own faith crisis ignited by separate issues.

The great Mormon dilution has begun.

[Emower]

The funny thing is that if you take a deep dive to try and protect your kids, or assemble answers to the issues to help others, if you are an objective person that will doom you. That is what happened to me. I took a deep dive so that I could be able to answer those who had had questions, and I had my kids in mind.

I couldn't recover from that. That is why Elder whats his name who gave the address at the fair Mormon conference is pushing the information war. The church would like for someone to have to wade through a sea of distraction and faithful answers before getting to facts that may not be presented faithfully. They are behind the ball on this one, and I dont think they will be able to leverage enough people to make that happen.

[IT_Veteran]

I think a lot of faithful members realize this. When DW sent her dad a list of questions about polygamy with links to faithful resources - he didn't have time to help anymore.

[Corsair]

I couldn't recover from that. That is why Elder whats his name who gave the address at the fair Mormon conference is pushing the information war. The church would like for someone to have to wade through a sea of distraction and faithful answers before getting to facts that may not be presented faithfully. They are behind the ball on this one, and I dont think they will be able to leverage enough people to make that happen.

Elder Pearson was certainly glad to have a room full of faithful volunteers support the finer points of doctrine for the LDS church. I noticed something about the conference. Take a look at the pictures that were released from the Church PR department:

Elder Pearson Says Independent Voices Are Needed to Sustain Faith

It's a room full of Baby Boomers. Seriously, Elder Pearson look like he is among the average age there. This is the crowd that customarily is interested in family history and temple work. It makes sense for older and retired people rather than parents of young children. Now this crowd has to add apologetics to their studies.

The institutional church has been deperately trying to get teenagers interested in family history and temple work. Getting the youth to take names to the temple is a big push if you are serving with Young Men or Young Women. But apologetics is a different story. I can only imagine the awkward questions that would arise if the major apoloetic points about plural marriage were raised with teenagers in my ward.

The larger Mormon Stories and Phoenix Open Mormon events I attended had a much younger crowd that included young parents who will not be raising their Primary children in the church. This is the cataclysmic counterpoint to the crowd at the FairMormon conference.

[achilles]

The only ones left are my very NOM wife and my youngest daughter and other SIL, who just recently got tattoos. I am not sure how deep in they are, but I won't be surprised if in a few years it will be 10 down in the HIPS family.

HIPS, was it one of these tattoos?

https://www.tattoodo.com/a/2016/12/8-ta ... r-tattoos/

[hiding in plain sight]

The only ones left are my very NOM wife and my youngest daughter and other SIL, who just recently got tattoos. I am not sure how deep in they are, but I won't be surprised if in a few years it will be 10 down in the HIPS family.

HIPS, was it one of these tattoos?

https://www.tattoodo.com/a/2016/12/8-ta ... r-tattoos/

LOL. That would be a big sign that they are on their way out.

[hiding in plain sight]

I think a lot of faithful members realize this. When DW sent her dad a list of questions about polygamy with links to faithful resources - he didn't have time to help anymore.

My favorite response from a SP was this. "HIPS. I have no good answers to the hard questions."

I appreciated his honesty.

[Hagoth]

We stopped by the house of a member of our bishopric who had said he needed to talk to Mrs. Hagoth. He told her he wanted to extend a calling to her and her reply was, "I won't do anything that requires me to teach doctrine or to be in church every week."

Hmmm. That's exactly what I said when my shelf was starting to break.

[IT_Veteran]

The institutional church has been deperately trying to get teenagers interested in family history and temple work. Getting the youth to take names to the temple is a big push if you are serving with Young Men or Young Women. But apologetics is a different story. I can only imagine the awkward questions that would arise if the major apoloetic points about plural marriage were raised with teenagers in my ward.

In my wife's ward, they've extended callings to the youth 16+ to work in the family history center (a room with a computer) and assist the older crowd in learning how to do it.

[hiding in plain sight]

The institutional church has been deperately trying to get teenagers interested in family history and temple work. Getting the youth to take names to the temple is a big push if you are serving with Young Men or Young Women. But apologetics is a different story. I can only imagine the awkward questions that would arise if the major apoloetic points about plural marriage were raised with teenagers in my ward.

In my wife's ward, they've extended callings to the youth 16+ to work in the family history center (a room with a computer) and assist the older crowd in learning how to do it.

I was in a leadership training session a number of years ago when I was the HPGL.

One of the "facts" that they told us about was a study they had done. If they could get people to do family history related work, it increased their loyalty to the church and also their attendance to meetings.

Hmmmmmmm.

I always think about that when I see a push to get youth to do family history or indexing or something like that.

[hiding in plain sight]

The institutional church has been deperately trying to get teenagers interested in family history and temple work. Getting the youth to take names to the temple is a big push if you are serving with Young Men or Young Women. But apologetics is a different story. I can only imagine the awkward questions that would arise if the major apoloetic points about plural marriage were raised with teenagers in my ward.

In my wife's ward, they've extended callings to the youth 16+ to work in the family history center (a room with a computer) and assist the older crowd in learning how to do it.

You are fortunate to have such a good wife Hagoth.

[Emower]

It's a room full of Baby Boomers. Seriously, Elder Pearson look like he is among the average age there. This is the crowd that customarily is interested in family history and temple work. It makes sense for older and retired people rather than parents of young children. Now this crowd has to add apologetics to their studies.

I did not notice that. Yeah, this church is likely doomed to a similar fate as most other religious groups, irrelevance at some point. I have been church hopping the last month, and it is interesting to see that there is virtually no one my age at any of these churches. Everybody looks at me with pride when I walk in and I can tell they are thinking, "look at this young buck coming to church like he ought to," because I am literally the only one there under the age of 50. Little do they know I am coming for roughly the same reasons as when I go to the zoo.

[Not Buying It]

Elder Pearson was certainly glad to have a room full of faithful volunteers support the finer points of doctrine for the LDS church. I noticed something about the conference. Take a look at the pictures that were released from the Church PR department:

Elder Pearson Says Independent Voices Are Needed to Sustain Faith

It's a room full of Baby Boomers. Seriously, Elder Pearson look like he is among the average age there. This is the crowd that customarily is interested in family history and temple work. It makes sense for older and retired people rather than parents of young children. Now this crowd has to add apologetics to their studies.

Elder Pearson is so full of crap. "Independent voices" aren't needed to "sustain faith" - the Brethren need to quit being such damn cowards and address the issues that are causing people to leave rather than relying on the incompetent, amateurish bungling of FAIR Mormon to try and address these issues. Hell, back in 1989 Elder Oaks gave a General Conference talk warning us about "alternate voices" (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng), and now "alternate voices" are what is needed to sustain faith? Do the Brethren really think it is wise to outsource revelation on hard questions to the likes of FAIR Mormon? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard a Church leader say in a while.

We need "independent voices". Bullpuckey. We need the Brethren to step up and do their damn job.

Now I agree with him when he says "We must be a voice for truth", except he doesn't really mean it - he doesn't want anyone spreading the truth, he wants them spreading FAIR Mormon's weak as water explanations and half-baked apologetics. If you start being a voice for truth, Elder Pearson, I might start listening to you.

[Corsair]

Elder Pearson is so full of crap. "Independent voices" aren't needed to "sustain faith" - the Brethren need to quit being such damn cowards and address the issues that are causing people to leave rather than relying on the incompetent, amateurish bungling of FAIR Mormon to try and address these issues. Hell, back in 1989 Elder Oaks gave a General Conference talk warning us about "alternate voices" (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng), and now "alternate voices" are what is needed to sustain faith? Do the Brethren really think it is wise to outsource revelation on hard questions to the likes of FAIR Mormon? That's one of the stupidest things I've heard a Church leader say in a while.

That "Alternate Voices" was a weird talk from Oaks. Even when I heard it as a young believer it sounded strange because I had not at all comprehended that their were any LDS narratives other than what the apostles provided. I found out shortly that it had something to do with Sunstone and Dialogue. My father was a Sunstone subscriber at the time but gave it up after it became negative in his judgement.

I would assert that Sunstone and Dialogue are the scholarly outlets that the LDS church needs to maintain itself. I can only imagine what the general authorities would try to say unless some group of historians and scholars were not trying to keep the church honest with itself.

[Reuben]

Elder Pearson is so full of crap. "Independent voices" aren't needed to "sustain faith" - the Brethren need to quit being such damn cowards and address the issues that are causing people to leave rather than relying on the incompetent, amateurish bungling of FAIR Mormon to try and address these issues. [...]

We need "independent voices". Bullpuckey. We need the Brethren to step up and do their damn job.

They need to do one more thing besides truthfully address the issues: make activity in the church a net positive for members anywhere on the belief spectrum.

A funny thing happens the moment your belief falls below a certain threshold. I'll call it the "crap threshold," because it's the point at which you say to yourself, "You know, they all might just be full of crap." Well, once your belief falls below the crap threshold, you start doing cost-benefit analysis, and restricting it to this life. And it just so happens that right now, if the cost of leaving isn't too great due to family pressure, staying active tends to be a net negative. You might also start doing cost-benefit analysis for other people, and find large demographics who are getting the shaft.

If the Q15 were to step up and do their damn jobs, hundreds of thousands of Mormon testimonies would immediately plummet below the crap threshold. Currently, that would be ruinous for the church.

[Thoughtful]

They need to do one more thing besides truthfully address the issues: make activity in the church a net positive for members anywhere on the belief spectrum.

AMEN!

A funny thing happens the moment your belief falls below a certain threshold. I'll call it the "crap threshold," because it's the point at which you say to yourself, "You know, they all might just be full of crap." Well, once your belief falls below the crap threshold, you start doing cost-benefit analysis, and restricting it to this life. And it just so happens that right now, if the cost of leaving isn't too great due to family pressure, staying active tends to be a net negative. You might also start doing cost-benefit analysis for other people, and find large demographics who are getting the shaft.

If the Q15 were to step up and do their damn jobs, hundreds of thousands of Mormon testimonies would immediately plummet below the crap threshold. Currently, that would be ruinous for the church.

I think I've hit the crap threshold. I just really really need Spouseman to hit the crap threshold and not be dancing on the line between crap/not crap.

[slk]

Glad to hear you're in good company. I can't imagine doing it all alone. This might sound crazy but the only ones I would even care about knowing the truth are mom and dad. Dad's 81, been TBM forever and I think once they get to a certain point, the last thing they want to know is that they've followed a make believe religion their whole life. They can see the finish line and there's no turning back.

[hiding in plain sight]

Glad to hear you're in good company. I can't imagine doing it all alone. This might sound crazy but the only ones I would even care about knowing the truth are mom and dad. Dad's 81, been TBM forever and I think once they get to a certain point, the last thing they want to know is that they've followed a make believe religion their whole life. They can see the finish line and there's no turning back.

Both of my parents are now gone. I did the same thing with my mom and didn't even bring up the topic with her at the end. Of course she was already dealing with age related dementia, so I don't think she would have fully grasped what I was talking about anyway.

My inlaws are still alive, but on their last few years. They don't even know about two of my kids being out. They just know about the oldest.