NOM

Some of you have probably been asked this question.

Sunday Mrs. Hagoth asked me "Why don't you want to believe?" I think this is a fascinating question and not necessarily an easy one to answer. It says a lot about the whole concept of faith and religious expectations. Why believe something? Because you want to, or because it works for you? Yes, if that's the kind of brain you happen to possess. Why not believe something, even if you want to? Because it fails to pass muster with critical thinking or direct evidence? Yes, if THAT'S the kind of brain you happen to possess.

My answer was that I wanted to believe desperately enough that I really researched the details of church doctrine and history, because I don't seem to have a great capacity for simply having faith, I need more to chew on. In every case came away bitterly disappointed that the truth was different from what I had been taught. I told her that it's not so much that I don't want to believe, but that I don't want to be deceived. She had just come from a very inspiring meeting where a member of our bishopric told the details of his recent brush with death, which he survived only because a series of coincidences/inspirations caused just the right people to come to his aid at just the right time, with some special spice thrown in (e.g. it took two blessings because the first one didn't involve consecrated oil). I have heard his story and it really is touching.

I told Mrs. H that I believe wonderful things really do happen to people and that there are events that seem miraculous. But those events are not specifically accessible to Mormons, and the mistake I see all to often is that when something remarkable happens to a Mormon they are too quick to somehow trace that directly to an affirmation that the Book of Mormon is true or that Russell M. Nelson is a prophet of God. "I was out of town and lost my wallet. A stranger showed up out of nowhere who had just happened to have found my wallet on the other side of town and then randomly bumped into me. I'm sure it's because I paid my tithing. The church is true!" If this happened to a Jehovah's Witness they could just as likely conclude that God was telling them their church is true.

I do want to believe. I want to believe that there are wonderful powers at work for our benefit. But what I have to work with is logic and science and I will stick to the empirical evidence as far as it takes me before I dive into the deep end. I mentioned some amazing spiritual experiences that some friends of ours have had and I said that I believe that they really did experience those things, but that it is their own experience and there is no way to know what happened inside their head to cause it, and no reason to infer that it should have any influence on my life and my experience. We each have our own journey to make and that shouldn't be dictated by anyone else.

How 'bout:

"I want to believe things which are true."

I may have wanted to believe at first, but I think since being out I have noticed there is enough toxicity in the current and past doctrine that I no longer want to believe.

The interesting thing is when someone insists my belief is about wanting or simply a matter of choice the first thing that comes to mind is to ask them, "If simply wanting or choosing meant I could and do believe something why of everything I could choose to believe would I choose Mormonism?" It is a premise that suffers much in the same way appeals to faith do, they can apply equally to anything so you may have just tried to waive (or relax) requirements of evidence and logic but you're left needing to convince me all the same. You're still going to be stuck convincing me why I should choose or want to believe in Jehovah over Krishna, Thor, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. As soon as they try and argue I should believe it because it is true, or because it reflects reality they've just put themselves right back where they were (in my case at least) of discussing the epistemological considerations of coming to a conclusion that Mormonism is true.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:05 pm I may have wanted to believe at first, but I think since being out I have noticed there is enough toxicity in the current and past doctrine that I no longer want to believe.

Indeed. It is why I risk ruptured internal organs from holding back howling laughter whenever I hear a Mormon try and argue, "Well, even if it isn't true it is a great place to raise kids." or some variation thereof.

These kinds of questions have always confused me. I don't understand why anyone would want to believe anything.

Our ability to understand our own reality seems so limited that it seems all we can hope for is to gather as much data as we can and form tentative hypotheses about what things might exist and how they might be related to one another.

Put another way, I don't want to believe anything, but I do want to gather data and determine which ideas seem more or less likely while at the same time recognizing that truly positive knowledge (especially in spiritual things) is likely impossible.

This could lead further into a discussion of why I think the concept of faith is nonsensical, but I'll resist that temptation.

I hate this line of thought.

The bottom line is that we have ample records/history of Joseph Smith and the church to know it's not true. It isn't an issue of "not wanting" to believe. This isn't an issue of faith. I never had a problem believing in what I can't see, but I do have a problem believing in spite of what I can see.

When I first found all of the church info out ~4.5 months ago and I unloaded (stupidly) everything on my wife, she seemed like without faith in something you have nothing. I get why she says it, but once you find out there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

I don't know if I ever posted my "story" with Mormonism before, but long story short I converted as I started college. My girlfriend (now wife) asked me to go through all of the missionary discussions, which I did. I had a tough time finding a 'confirmation,' but after a while I certainly felt it. I did not convert while in high school though because my I think my parents, while more understanding than they should've been, probably would have been a bit weirded out by me joining as a high schooler.

Long story short, because I did not convert as a Junior in HS, her parents moved the family across the country before her senior year of high school to try and "break us up." They did offer to not move *if* she agreed to attend BYU for at least one year.

I always blamed her parents for it, but the last 4.5 months have made it so clear that the church is to blame. It is a harmful religion and it made me feel for years like I could never be good enough and that I was somehow not worthy of her daughter no matter how good I treated her. And I knew a few Mormons my age that were just complete dbags, so the knowledge that her parents would've been thrilled with her dating them and not me was crushing.

I could go on and if anyone wants to hear more I can post a more detailed 'story' later, but that's why I don't want to believe. It's a toxic religion that destroys anyone who dissents, and it can't even hold up to the same standard of truth it demands of its members. Why would *anyone* want to believe in that once they discover the truth?

Humans have a strong bias for believing what they want to be true. Some of my most painful and valuable life lessons weakened that bias and taught me to be wary of it. (Case in point: faith crisis.) This was hard-won growth. Why would I want to regress?

I got this with a slight twist, "why don't you choose to believe?"

It seems that one would have to want to believe before one can choose to believe.

Either way I cannot grok it.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 pm I hate this line of thought.

The bottom line is that we have ample records/history of Joseph Smith and the church to know it's not true. It isn't an issue of "not wanting" to believe. This isn't an issue of faith. I never had a problem believing in what I can't see, but I do have a problem believing in spite of what I can see.

When I first found all of the church info out ~4.5 months ago and I unloaded (stupidly) everything on my wife, she seemed like without faith in something you have nothing. I get why she says it, but once you find out there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

I don't know if I ever posted my "story" with Mormonism before, but long story short I converted as I started college. My girlfriend (now wife) asked me to go through all of the missionary discussions, which I did. I had a tough time finding a 'confirmation,' but after a while I certainly felt it. I did not convert while in high school though because my I think my parents, while more understanding than they should've been, probably would have been a bit weirded out by me joining as a high schooler.

Long story short, because I did not convert as a Junior in HS, her parents moved the family across the country before her senior year of high school to try and "break us up." They did offer to not move *if* she agreed to attend BYU for at least one year.

I always blamed her parents for it, but the last 4.5 months have made it so clear that the church is to blame. It is a harmful religion and it made me feel for years like I could never be good enough and that I was somehow not worthy of her daughter no matter how good I treated her. And I knew a few Mormons my age that were just complete dbags, so the knowledge that her parents would've been thrilled with her dating them and not me was crushing.

I could go on and if anyone wants to hear more I can post a more detailed 'story' later, but that's why I don't want to believe. It's a toxic religion that destroys anyone who dissents, and it can't even hold up to the same standard of truth it demands of its members. Why would *anyone* want to believe in that once they discover the truth?

Thank you -- well-writen ! It always seemed clear to me that it is not an issue of someone not wanting to believe. That sounds as if someone does not have the motivation, and if he/she just tried harder, then the testimony would magically arrive. Instead, it is an issue of the church making it impossible to believe, due to the inconsistencies in the dogma. After awhile, one gets weary of struggling with the mental gymnastics of forcing oneself to agree that 1 + 1 = 3.
And the comeback question for us when we are asked, "Why don't you want to believe?" is......."How could you possibly want to force yourself into believing?" Of course, this reply may touch off an argument which most of us want to avoid with loved ones.......but it is important to somehow convey the idea that wanting to believe is not at all the crux of the issue. - Wndr.

I've had a similar conversation after a family member decided to purchase John Bytheway's book "How do I know I Know?"

It sort of backfired when I pointed out the circular logic that Bytheway incorporates when he states many of us know, we just don't know we know. So we have to do things that help us know we know. So to help us know we know he suggests the following:

John Bytheway suggests that we "F.E.E.L." the truthfulness of the gospel through our feelings, our experiences, the many evidences we encounter, and our logical conclusions about how a loving God interacts with His children on the earth. Like gradually turning up a dimmer switch, understanding all the ways we F.E.E.L. our testimony will help it grow brighter.

I like his F and the E because that's where the magic happens in the church. Everyone feels good, has wonderful experiences, but completely ignores the evidence and logical conclusions when the dark whitewashed historical side of the church comes to light.

For me the "know" fell apart when I started to see the crazy fundamental frontier sex cult version of the church emerge followed by institutional dishonesty to cover up the past. Then as modern Mormonism emerged the pattern of institutional toxicity was created by obedience to the corporation and control through worthiness interviews and underwear requirements.

I guess Bytheway is right. I know the church isn't what it claims to be through evidence and logical conclusions. After that there's nothing really left to choose to believe in.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:05 pm I may have wanted to believe at first, but I think since being out I have noticed there is enough toxicity in the current and past doctrine that I no longer want to believe.

+1 I wanted to believe when I was scared about what disbelief meant for my life. Now that I haven't believed for a long time and have been out of the church, I'd never want to go back to believing in it.

I can't live my life based on emotions any more. Logic is just too... logical.

I want to believe........ for love's sake I do. Life with DW would be back to bliss, all my "friends" would come crowding in to welcome me back to the fold and I would once more be in line to win the super deluxe suite in the CK after I die.

If only wanting to believe could erase all the evidence to persuade me it is all an illusion.

On the other hand I want to believe my life has more purpose now, I believe I can be happy in the world and of it too, and believe in the possibility of a fulfilling existence.

The paradox of faith transition is that we are suddenly left without a solid base for moral judgement at the exact time we could really use it. I am far more comfortable talking about what I do believe at this point and I recognize that most believing Mormons simply don't want to have that conversation, including the believing Mormons that most of us are married to. If you want to immediately insult their intelligence, you might try to explain that you are trying to understand rather than necessarily just believe. It's unfortunate that context and understanding is such a rare commodity among the believers in a faith community.

It's deceptively simple to turn the logic of "wanting to believe" back against the believer. The "deceptive" part is thinking that this will necessarily help your own cause. Still, it's worth following this line of thought: "Why don't you want to believe the truth of Roman Catholicism? How about the truth of Islam? Wouldn't you like the comfort of believing the truth of Orthodox Judaism? Don't you want the peace that come from believing that the Jehovah's Witnesses are right?"

I admit, this will largely cause the believing Mormons in your life to angrily tell you that each of those beliefs are not true and they are not worth believing. You can agree with them, but follow up with, "How do you know that those belief systems are not true? Do the billions of people in those faiths lack a testimony of truth? How would we know?"

At this point, your relationship with this believer is starting to become damaged since their beliefs are tightly coupled to their identity and sense of self-worth. I am not aware of any intrinsically "safe" way to discard old beliefs and firmly establish a new sense of self-determination and moral reasoning. This is particularly true when interacting with believers.

Of late I have developed a new respect for Catholic saints like Anthony, Benedict, Francis, Dominic, and Boniface. Each of them simply headed off into the wilderness to find a new basis for spirituality then turned it into their life's work simply teaching those that had a desire to not only believe, but truly understand. I note that each of them cast aside family obligations and overtly ignored social pressures in their respective faith development. Each of those saints did not have wives or children, after all.

This is, perhaps, a way to get to the beliefs that are really going to matter. But the loss of social ties may be too big of a personal burden. For the sake of family, friends, and civilization I would choose the harder struggle of understanding, context, and deeper beliefs coupled with humility and kindness to the fervent believers in each of our lives.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:34 am For the sake of family, friends, and civilization I would choose the harder struggle of understanding, context, and deeper beliefs coupled with humility and kindness to the fervent believers in each of our lives.

This is true, but I am struggling to do this right now because I feel like i need to defend myself and my actions/or inaction as the case may be. The institution still has all my loved ones on the hook, and I am there along with them.

When i was a child, i was taught of the great magic of Santa Claus. As i grew older, I began to think more rationally about his magic. Could he really take toys in a flying sleigh to all the kids in the world? Did reindeer fly? As i got older, my parents went to great lengths to try to keep up my faith in Santa.
Reindeer tracks in the yard, half eaten carrots eaten by Rudolph, and cookies and milk eaten by Santa.
Eventually, i came to the realization that Santa was not true. This great lie was later confirmed by my parents. Why is there an expectation that as you grow, learn, and advance in age and experience that your beliefs, your faith in the supernatural should not change? It should be expected to change. The church is no different than my parents trying to keep my faith in Santa. There comes a time when we should put away childish things. Unfortunately for many of us, we never realize this, or figure it out late in life.

Like OP, I find this to be a fascinating question. There are a lot of different ways to go with it.

"I don't think belief is about what you want to or don't want to believe. Beliefs evolve with experience and understanding."

"How am I supposed to pick what to want to believe? There are a billion Catholics and a billion Muslims and billions of others who believe other things. How do I rate which one I should want to believe?"

"I didn't stop believing in the teachings of the LDS church because I wanted to stop, my belief fell away as I learned things that made believing impossible."

"Why do you want to believe?"

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 pm My answer was that I wanted to believe desperately enough that I really researched the details of church doctrine and history, because I don't seem to have a great capacity for simply having faith, I need more to chew on. In every case came away bitterly disappointed that the truth was different from what I had been taught. I told her that it's not so much that I don't want to believe, but that I don't want to be deceived.

I really like this Hagoth. It mirrors my own experience and feelings. I spent a while wanting to believe and feeling crushed that I couldn't seem to muster that seemingly all important ability. My feeling is that faith is meant to bridge gaps, not to provide shortcuts.

2bizE wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:48 pm There comes a time when we should put away childish things. Unfortunately for many of us, we never realize this, or figure it out late in life.

"Even if it's something disappointing, it's still better to know the truth. Because people can deal with disappointment. And once they've done that, they can feel that they have really grown. And that can be such a good feeling." -Fred Rogers

Here's a quote from the Dahlia Lama that I find useful: “People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost.”

Another is to ask someone how they came to be Mormon and maybe show them a map of how religions are distributed around the world and ask, what if you were born here (point to Delhi or Mozul)?

I think my basic summary, that I have used over and over again, is: "each of us is on our own path and we need to find our own way through life and no one else has the right to dictate what that should be."

I have noticed that I'm getting more attention from the new bishopric and my wife has had hints that they are going to want to "sit down" with me, which means put the reactivation pressure on. I'm getting tired of opening all of the wounds every time there's a change of guard. I think this time I'll just say, "look, all I want is for you to treat me like an adult and respect my choices," and leave it at that. If that doesn't work I'll pull out "have you read the Gospel Topics essays? Read those and get back to me and we can compare notes." So far that has stopped them in their tracks.