NOM

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:51 pm**

Okay, I know, you sick of hearing about this, I'm sick of it myself- but I had a serious tiff with one of my brothers about the coffee issue and it went something like this:

My brother is heating up water to make some Postum. Postum? Yes, they are making it again- anyway he is cursing the micro-wave because it is an old one and it beeps and hums and light turns on, but no heat. Some old microwave at my uncle's house. The cup full of water he placed in it is still as cold as the peep stone Jos. Smith stole from his neighbor.

Me: Why are even screwing around with it?
Him: I want some Postum.
Me: Why don't you have some coffee? The pot is half full.
Him: No, I don't drink coffee anymore. (He's getting churchy now- orthodox- he thinks. Plenty blessings that way...)
Me: Well, do whatever you please, but I think this is silly. There's nothing wrong with coffee and you know it.
Him: Don't mock me.

What do you say to that? Don't mock me. Coffee. BYU is allowing, finally, soft drinks with caffeine, when are they going to say- alright- do whatever you want folks- drink coffee. We give you our full blessing and permission to drink coffee- all you want- including in front of other Mormons.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:36 pm**

It'll happen -- it wasn't long ago that have Coke in a house was looked at like you were some sort of rebel.

And when it does it will get downplayed in the same way - 'It was always a guideline, but you can make that choice' etc, etc.

Although it will probably be a long time before it gets that wink from the Q15, so I don't know that you'll see Mormons out drinking coffee near each other for a long time without serious shame.

Posted: **Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:50 pm**

Maybe when they endorse "Face Cards?"

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:51 am**

Why do you always take 2 mormons fishing?
That way nobody drinks all your beer...

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 am**

If you read some of the olden-day writings, the LDS leadership also condemned hot soup.

So,...better chill your chicken-noodle soup, cuz its BAD...since the leadership will never lead the church astray and all...

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:33 am**

I think tea will come first. Tea just doesn't seem to have the stigma that coffee does. There are lots of varieties of teas and some of them are not really teas. Herbal teas are already ok and it seems the line is kind of blurry as to which teas are ok and which are not.

When I look at the label of some of the things my TBM wife drinks they have tea in them. I don't point it out but I don't think it bothers her that much. Maybe green tea will sort of become acceptable and then other varieties will slowly follow.

The only problem I see is that leaders have pushed the definition of "hot drinks" as "coffee and tea" for many decades. So it may take more time for that to be redefined in believers minds.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:48 am**

OK, LDS church and BYU Honor Code Office, Help me understand this. Caffeinated sodas are OK, but coffee and tea are forbidden because D&C 89 discourages "hot drinks". It's not about caffeine.

But hot chocolate is OK, despite being hot and containing caffeine. Because "hot drinks" really means brewed drinks

However, iced tea and iced coffee are forbidden despite being cold, because they are brewed

But herbal teas, hot or iced, are OK, despite being brewed, because there is no caffeine.

Maybe God just really hates plants like Camellia Sinensis (tea) and Coffea Arabica (coffee). Or maybe the difference between and good Mormon and a bad Mormon is simply the temperature of their caffeine. Except for Theobroma Cacao (chocolate).

So, another claim is to basically just staying away from anything addictive. You still can’t have a beer though, even if you’re not an alcoholic. But you can have a soda, even though soda’s addictive.

The original Word of Wisdom didn’t say anything about addiction. Joseph Smith didn’t translate it from some ancient text; it was exactly what he meant to say. Didn’t he know the word “addiction”?

Why do Mormons think this addiction doctrine is special? Everyone knows being addicted to something isn’t healthy. The Word of Wisdom went from being a list of things to stay away from to being a safe, broad statement.

Perhaps we should just stay away from anything addictive. But not sugar, which is surprisingly addictive. Eat all of that junk you want.

(I have to give credit to a couple of posts on Reddit that provided much of the text for this post)

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:03 am**

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:48 am OK, LDS church and BYU Honor Code Office, Help me understand this. Caffeinated sodas are OK, but coffee and tea are forbidden because D&C 89 discourages "hot drink". It's not about caffeine.

But host chocolate is OK, despite being hot and containing caffeine. Because "hot drinks" really means brewed drinks

However, iced tea and iced coffee are forbidden despite being cold, because they are brewed

But herbal teas, hot or iced, are OK, despite being brewed, because there is no caffeine.

Maybe God just really hates plants like Camellia Sinensis (tea) and Coffea Arabica (coffee). Or maybe the difference between and good Mormon and a bad Mormon is simply the temperature of their caffeine. Except for Theobroma Cacao (chocolate).

So, another claim is to basically just staying away from anything addictive. You still can’t have a beer though, even if you’re not an alcoholic. But you can have a soda, even though soda’s addictive.

The original Word of Wisdom didn’t say anything about addiction. Joseph Smith didn’t translate it from some ancient text; it was exactly what he meant to say. Didn’t he know the word “addiction”?

Why do Mormons think this addiction doctrine is special? Everyone knows being addicted to something isn’t healthy. The Word of Wisdom went from being a list of things to stay away from to being a safe, broad statement.

Perhaps we should just stay away from anything addictive. But not sugar, which is surprisingly addictive. Eat all of that junk you want.

(I have to give credit to a couple of posts on Reddit that provided much of the text for this post)

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:03 am**

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:48 am OK, LDS church and BYU Honor Code Office, Help me understand this. Caffeinated sodas are OK, but coffee and tea are forbidden because D&C 89 discourages "hot drink". It's not about caffeine.

But host chocolate is OK, despite being hot and containing caffeine. Because "hot drinks" really means brewed drinks

However, iced tea and iced coffee are forbidden despite being cold, because they are brewed

But herbal teas, hot or iced, are OK, despite being brewed, because there is no caffeine.

Maybe God just really hates plants like Camellia Sinensis (tea) and Coffea Arabica (coffee). Or maybe the difference between and good Mormon and a bad Mormon is simply the temperature of their caffeine. Except for Theobroma Cacao (chocolate).

So, another claim is to basically just staying away from anything addictive. You still can’t have a beer though, even if you’re not an alcoholic. But you can have a soda, even though soda’s addictive.

The original Word of Wisdom didn’t say anything about addiction. Joseph Smith didn’t translate it from some ancient text; it was exactly what he meant to say. Didn’t he know the word “addiction”?

Why do Mormons think this addiction doctrine is special? Everyone knows being addicted to something isn’t healthy. The Word of Wisdom went from being a list of things to stay away from to being a safe, broad statement.

Perhaps we should just stay away from anything addictive. But not sugar, which is surprisingly addictive. Eat all of that junk you want.

(I have to give credit to a couple of posts on Reddit that provided much of the text for this post)

The prophet has counselled us to avoid coffee and tea. It's about obedience to God because he knows what is best for us. There is more to it than caffeine, temperature and brewed. One day, So-called scientists say that a glass of wine is good for you, the next day they say to avoid wine as the sulfites are harmful. Better to be safe than sorry and obey the commandments of god who understands these things from an eternal perspective. He knows more about it than we do and we just need to trust and obey him. God laws are unchanging. He hasn't changed on this for 120+ years and won't be changing anytime soon.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:19 am**

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:03 am The prophet has counseled us to avoid coffee and tea. It's about obedience to God because he knows what is best for us. God laws are unchanging. He hasn't changed on this for 120+ years and won't be changing anytime soon.

We believe that God recommended a sacred health code
We believe that God upgraded this recommendation to a commandment
We believe that God further refined hot drinks to mean coffee and tea
Even though there is no scientific basis for this change we are to obey
We are Mormons
And Mormons just believe!

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:26 am**

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:19 am We believe that God recommended a sacred health code
We believe that God upgraded this recommendation to a commandment
We believe that God further refined hot drinks to mean coffee and tea
Even though there is no scientific basis for this change we are to obey
We are Mormons
And Mormons just believe!

I got halfway through this post before the soundtrack kicked in. And suddenly I could not read these words without hearing the "Book of Mormon" musical.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:34 am**

It's all about obedience... nothing more, nothing less. While we know smoking is bad for you, we also now know the coffee has a lot of health benefits. We also know what a trainwreck the original Word of Wisdom was to include hot soups...

The Word of Wisdom wasn't even strictly implemented until 15 years after polygamy was fully banned, and I've heard a few people make a connection that it was turned into a strict commandment to try and get people back in line after being upset they couldn't bang as many women as they could marry anymore.

It's just a mess, like most of the church doctrine, but in the end it's all about obedience and control. Just like the garments, just like tithing, this is all about making sure you know who is doing the thinking for you.

Clearly I am quite bitter about this one.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:44 pm**

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:26 am
moksha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:19 am We believe that God recommended a sacred health code
We believe that God upgraded this recommendation to a commandment
We believe that God further refined hot drinks to mean coffee and tea
Even though there is no scientific basis for this change we are to obey
We are Mormons
And Mormons just believe!
I got halfway through this post before the soundtrack kicked in. And suddenly I could not read these words without hearing the "Book of Mormon" musical.

Isn't that such a great song? You just know Mormonism has arrived when it hits Broadway and becomes the best musical of the decade. It would reel in the crowds if performed on a daily basis at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:45 pm**

And what about cold brewed coffee? The whole process uses no heat at all.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:07 pm**

To the OP I would say that commandments is a hill they will die on. So WoW will still be here when I no longer am.

Think DHO's speech in the Be One thingama, and how carefully and indirectly he asserted that the priesthood ban was a COMMANDMENT. Only the explanations for the commandment were wrong. The point is, when forced into a corner, one thing the brethren will continue to defend is their divine right to command the members. If they give any ground on that they may as well go all Community of Christ on us. That is a corporate disaster in their world.

The WoW is not about health, it is about obedience plus a little tribal identity. Lately my occasional cup has been my subtle signal to coworkers that I have rebelled against my tribe.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:01 pm**

jfro18 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:34 am Clearly I am quite bitter about this one.

You can be as bitter as you want, as long as your coffee is not bitter we will get along just fine.

Posted: **Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:17 pm**

To me the coffee ban is too embedded in mormons being a "peculiar people." You might see some relaxation of the coffee ban about the same time as abolition of the white shirt and tie uniform, garment wear being made optional, and funeral potatoes and green jello concoctions falling out of favor at mormon gatherings. Turning one's nose up at coffee is a defining feature of the True Believer, and won't be going away any time soon.

Posted: **Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:34 am**

From Hearken O ye People:

In 1829, just as the Kendal Community dissolved and Kirtland’s Morley Family organized, Samuel Underhill wrote down some of what he was preaching. As a former Quaker, he borrowed scriptural language and forms for his instruction:

Now it came to pass that the sons of men found in the land a certain plant having broad leaves and an acrid taste and it stupified the people. 2. And some burned it and drew the smoke thereof into their mouths & some put it in their mouths and spit forth the juice thereof for it was much & many made it very fine and drew it into their noses. . . . [H]earken unto wisdom & be ye saved. 6. Strong drink is ruin; much wine is an evil, tea is a curse, coffee is injurious, tobaccoes disgustful and poisonous and altogether are a great damnation. 6. [repeated number] Drink water alone, live on simple diet take due exercise and ye shall be happy.35

In addition, Underhill lectured locally on limiting the consumption of meat and particularly recommended abstaining from pork. His lectures generated a continuing discussion among members of the Mormonites in Kirtland since Levi Hancock, who had not been a part of the Morley Family, recalled, “The preaching in Kirtland was against the use of pork."

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:47 am**

Proselytizing Bird wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:44 pm Isn't that such a great song? Book of Mormon the musical would reel in the crowds if performed on a daily basis at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building.

Are you thinking what I am thinking? What a marvelous opportunity for a bunch of talented young elders and sisters to labor for their missions. They would just need to indicate their previous song and dance experience on their mission applications and upload a demo sound file. "Hello, my name is Elder Price and I would like to share with you the most amazing book!"

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm**

Wow, great quote Five Finger. Too much of a kwinky-dink here perhaps? Sorta like the WOW..."not by commandment"...

These guys back in Navuoo- I bet close to 90 percent of them chewed tobacco, or smoked- or both. It was dirt cheap, tobacco was, and besides upsetting Emma for spitting all over hell and half of Georgia, on the floor, steps, in her lap....well she didn't like that. Think any of those men cared?
I don't either. It was a way of life, and as common to them as eating an apple- they just did it.

The temperance people had a point though for sure- in respect to alcohol- I'll give them that. Drunks are a pain in the neck any time, and I suppose they always have been and always will be. Have a drink from time to time but don't get drunk. Pretty simple stuff really. Although I like and drink alcohol from time to time, it's not the smartest thing to do, and I know it, and so does about everyone.

But innocent tea? Coffee? That's so lame-brainy. The whole world drinks tea and coffee and have for millenniums. Or should that be millennia? Probably the latter....and I probably don't much care.

Found out recently that Mocha Java is a type of coffee- a mix from two different areas. I always thought it was coffee mixed with chocolate. So I bought some Mocha Java coffee beans, ground them, brewed it, and I am well pleased to say that I like it very much. Had it this morning in fact.

NOM

When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

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Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?

Re: When are they going to let Mormons drink coffee in front of each other?