NOM

I keep getting this statement followed by the question:

"The Bretheren" are honorable, sincere, men that have dedicated their lives to the service of others. They teach "good" things like be kind to others and stuffs.

How can you say they are trying to deceive people about the church?

Some people are not ready for the "meat" of the gospel so they are just providing the "milk"

My questions are: How much do these guys actually know about troubling issue?, Or how much do they believe about what they've read in church history? If they know a lot do they just kind of delude themselves about this stuff, so they can still look at themselves in the mirror? Their whole life is wrapped up in this, what would happen if one of their shelves broke? What would they do? What would it take for a Q70 or higher to resign over church issues? Would that happen or would the church "arrange" for said resignation to be for some other reason?

Quite often people in power are happy to use a myth to keep the general populace happy. Even many of the Founding fathers can be sourced with comments that there average person needs god to live a moral life.

I think the Q15 see it similarly. Plus the income stream and perqs are excellent

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 amHow much do these guys actually know about troubling issue?

Are "the essays" published on their "own" website? If they "don't know" they are completely inept at doing "their job."

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 amWhat would it take for a Q70 or higher to resign over church issues?

Are you familiar with Hans Mattson?

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/s ... doubt.html


As far as all of your other questions, some people are better at compartmentalizing and mental gymnastics than other people. If they know the "dirty" parts of the history, they justify in their minds that the overall fruits of mormonism are good, so perpetuating it is good. The Sunk Cost Fallacy probably rules their lives also.

I disagree that the good outweighs the bad when it comes to mormonism of course. They're just a bunch of scared old cowards, hiding behind ~200 years of lies. (Or with their heads stuck in the 1930's to quote an esteemed NOM colleague.)

Let's change around the question from the believers in your life:

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am "The Bretheren" are honorable, sincere, men that have dedicated their lives to the service of others. They teach "good" things like be kind to others and stuffs.

Would they feel the same way about the leaders of other faiths? Does Pope Francis have a testimony of Roman Catholicism? He seems to be honorable, sincere and has dedicated his life to the service of others. What about the leaders of Community of Christ? They are apostles who will testify of the importance of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's role as founder of their faith. How about Billy Graham who spent his life as an honorable, sincere man dedicated to the service of others?

Fred Rogers taught "good" things like be kind to others and stuffs. He was a Presbyterian minister. Is this a valid path back to God? Was Fred Rogers missing anything when showed up at the pearly gates?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am How can you say they are trying to deceive people about the church?

Joseph Smith was in Carthage Jail because he destroyed the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor. What was the content of that newspaper? There is only one issue. It's online and you can read it all within an hour. Was there any lie in the Nauvoo Expositor? Was anything false printed? Let's read it together since it testifies of the truth of the Book of Mormon! It also details Joseph Smith's plural marriages. Was this a lie? Is there anything in his many, many marriages that might cause investigators to not want to join the LDS church? Should the contents of the Nauvoo Expositor be kept from the membership of the LDS church? Would I get any resistance if I presented the Nauvoo Expositor as a lesson in Elders Quorum?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am Some people are not ready for the "meat" of the gospel so they are just providing the "milk"

What is the "meat" of the gospel that people are not ready for? How would we know that it is correct doctrine if we are never allowed to discuss it in any kind of official forum. This is what led Denver Snuffer out of the institutional church

Of course they know all of the issues. They had to approve the essays. But knowing about the issues and accepting the implications of the issues are two completely different things. There are some powerful social forces that keep them from thinking too deeply about the implications, same as many other members.

But that's a cop-out really. Their first loyalty should be to the truth, not to an organization, so I don't have any respect for them.

I would offer that the question is "what do they NOT want to know". Willful ignorance is plausible deniability.

The information gets filtered up by layers of "yes" men whose careers and livelihood are tied to their positions working for the church.

Did you ever watch the leaked videos with Elder Gong?

Go watch those and come back and ask your questions again!

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:15 am Are you familiar with Hans Mattson?

That was great! I had not seen that before.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:25 am Would they feel the same way about the leaders of other faiths? Does Pope Francis have a testimony of Roman Catholicism? He seems to be honorable, sincere and has dedicated his life to the service of others. What about the leaders of Community of Christ? They are apostles who will testify of the importance of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's role as founder of their faith. How about Billy Graham who spent his life as an honorable, sincere man dedicated to the service of others?

This is a great point, what makes them different than other religious leaders.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:51 am There are some powerful social forces that keep them from thinking too deeply about the implications, same as many other members.

I think this is a key point, perhaps the social forces perhaps keep them from putting 2 and 2 together.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:40 pm The information gets filtered up by layers of "yes" men whose careers and livelihood are tied to their positions working for the church.

Did you ever watch the leaked videos with Elder Gong?

Go watch those and come back and ask your questions again!

No! where are they?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:10 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:40 pm The information gets filtered up by layers of "yes" men whose careers and livelihood are tied to their positions working for the church.

Did you ever watch the leaked videos with Elder Gong?

Go watch those and come back and ask your questions again!

No! where are they?

Here's an article.

https://klewtv.com/news/nation-world/wa ... p-meetings

Google mormon leaks YouTube channel, "in which they fret..."

You'll never see the apostles in the same way ever again!

ETA: here's the link to the Mormon Leaks page

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2016/12 ... nal-leaks/

My guess is that actual knowledge of the various issues varies greatly across this group. Some have investigated a bit and found answers that work for them, but many others are probably only vaguely aware and lump it all in with the expected challenges of the "last days."

I've been amazed at how generally disinterested most members are in really understanding these issues and I suspect plenty of higher-ups are just as apathetic. Others are willfully ignorant, a few are in genuine denial, and a few more have just decided to just ride it out even if it is all made up.

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:25 amWhat is the "meat" of the gospel that people are not ready for?

Excellent question. All I’ve ever seen served is correlated skim milk... Stale appetizers, at best. Where’s the beef?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am "The Bretheren" are honorable, sincere, men that have dedicated their lives to the service of others. They teach "good" things like be kind to others and stuffs.

My response to this would be "Citation Please!"

How do you know they are good, honorable men? Do you personally know them? Have you interacted with them in a variety of life situations?

In most cases, the answer is "no." They know that they are good people because they have been told they are. That's it. There is no actual evidence In reality they have no idea what they are really like. They could be great honest people that are so insulated from the world that they don't know better, or they could be delusional psychopaths. You don't know.

Additionally, what you do see of them is their public face. A carefully controlled image they put out for everyone to see.

In the words of Dave Barry:

Someone who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter is NOT a nice person.

From what I can tell "meat" = stuff that requires you to accept a convoluted, confusing and siloed answer where words and God are redefined.

Holland wrote his master's thesis on changes to the Book of Mormon...

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:25 am

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:04 am Some people are not ready for the "meat" of the gospel so they are just providing the "milk"

What is the "meat" of the gospel that people are not ready for?

What we do know is that this meat is not steak or any meat found in a delicious curry. It is not thinly sliced well-marbled beef cooked in a hotpot or a melt in your mouth pork belly. Most likely it is some sort of dried jerky without much seasoning. Hard to know exactly when it is always described in vague terms. Maybe it is some type of mystery meat that one has to acquire a taste for or perhaps an immunity.

The milk, on the other hand, is probably the Christian narrative with a few variations,