NOM

If I were to meet up with an apologist friend, (who knows I am disaffected) and churchy-pants comes up, any suggestions for dealing with it? Topics to avoid, topics to bring up, or ways to handle situations where I don't have details at my fingertips?

Would your friendship survive a churchy-pants discussion? If not, then adopt an attitude of amused indifference if he goes there.

If it were me and our friendship would survive, I would talk about epistemology, the meaning of self-transcendent experiences, probability, belief vs. faith (as in trust in an object of religious devotion), and guilt vs. shame. If I wanted to go for the throat, I would read Matthew 23 while helping him ask the million-dollar question "Lord, is it us?" My friend would shoulder the burden of proof for any claim he introduces, the church would shoulder the burden of trusting it, and I would ask a lot of questions.

My only misgiving about this approach is whether I could keep it up.

But that's just me. I really don't care for the circular discussions about history.

I agree with Reuben - it really depends on both what your friendship can take and what you're looking to do with a conversation.

Right now if I had a conversation with an apologist or if say my TBM in-laws were to ask why I dislike the church, I would immediately go to the Book of Abraham, Deutero-Isaiah, Plagiarism in the JST, priesthood retrofitting, and DNA. None of those have answers that are workable, although of course there are apologist answers for everything.

Then I'd go to spiritual witnesses among other religions, how impossible the religion is to be true, and apologists have to re-invent the church if it was true from the beginning.

But again, that's just my personal thinking if I was asked for my thoughts on church stuff. I'm in a place where I'd welcome the conversation at the moment.

The more I think about these hypothetical conversations the more I think the best argument is personal experience and observed phenomena. Specifically priesthood healings and the recent attempt of authorities to downplay them ala radio free mormon's most recent episode highlighting April general conference where everyone dies in the stories and the priesthood heals no one.

In my case I would use the example of a relative who is quadriplegic and offer the apologist the opportunity to test his own faith in offering a blessing.

I also like using an appeal to known authority for apologists which is watching or reading Richard Bushman's fireside where he says the dominant narrative is not true and cannot be sustained. Then ask the follow up question "what do you think patriarch bushman means by that statement?"

Focus on your personal inabilities to reconcile all of the weird things.

The list of weird things is too long to get through.

Ask your brother how he reconciles them.

Thanks for this advice, this is less than hypothetical now, as its happening this week. I will report back on how this goes.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:29 pm Ask your brother how he reconciles them.

Actually BIL is different and seems to be enjoying a lot of podcasts from the DAMU now. Getting into some Jon Dehlin. I avoid talking about specific issues, but I have told him that he and I can talk if he needs an understanding, non-judgemental ear to bend. I have been a little more forthcoming with him about where I stand as well.

Met with this friend of mine today. I was probably a bit heavy handed with the term "apologist," it would be better to call him a very liberal or progressive member. He does do some mental gymnastics to keep things working for him, but he is very understanding of my position and even sympathized with it. We had a great chat about all kinds of stuff including church stuff. We talked a bit about epistemology, he had an experience that, to him, is undeniable. We avoided "debating" about any specific topic but rather shared what conclusions we had come to and what life experiences affected those conclusions.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:21 pm We talked a bit about epistemology, he had an experience that, to him, is undeniable. We avoided "debating" about any specific topic but rather shared what conclusions we had come to and what life experiences affected those conclusions.

That sounds like a successful church conversation to me!

I still struggle with family members who remind me of shared spiritual experiences like the time we laid hands on my newborn son's tiny head through the holes of the incubator in the NICU. Of course it was an undeniable spiritual experience!

Or the time we gave a blessing to grandma as she suffered with her latest bout of constipation; blessing her with patience as the over the counter stool softener slowly worked through her body and relieved her pain! Not so spiritual but nonetheless undeniably weird and hilarious all at the same time!

We've all had "undeniable" experiences that prop up our faith and belief. That's what the human mind does! It's a survival mechanism that keeps us in a homeostatic balance so that we don't waste precious energy and brain resources worrying about the incontrollable. It's a mechanism for emotional processing, like selective listening or blocking out unimportant stimuli. We create experiences that justify and seek out validation for the human things we do.

Mormonism doesn't have a monopoly on undeniable experiences! I really hate hearing that response. It just means "I'm content believing weird sh!t!"

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm That sounds like a successful church conversation to me!

It really was, he is a great person and good friend. It helped that neither of us was really trying to convince the other of anything.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm We've all had "undeniable" experiences that prop up our faith and belief.

I did share New Name Noah's miraculous healing story since it related, I think he found it interesting.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:47 pm
I still struggle with family members who remind me of shared spiritual experiences like the time we laid hands on my newborn son's tiny head through the holes of the incubator in the NICU. Of course it was an undeniable spiritual experience!

This is especially true since the church describes spiritual experiences are those experiences that make you feel good.