NOM

I HATE the LDS version of hell as its explained. According to the Book of Mormon, the punishment you receive is to have a bright recollection of your uncleanness, which causes you to "shrink" from the presence of God.

Translation?.....you feel bad.

So, you have someone who is a total creep: hurts people, lies, cheats, kills, hurts animals,...etc. And....<<drum roll>>....he feels bad for what he did and that is the whole punishment?

Hunh?

I realize I'm leaning toward the "mercy needed" side of judgment (if there is such a thing),...but I know a lot of people who can and do live just fine with "feeling bad".

I happen to think Joseph Smith was one of those types. He did what he did, felt justified in it as long as he had "no accusers". I also think the LDS leadership are similar; they wink at and ignore the consequences of the lies they tell, all the while being justified because they have found loopholes (in their opinion) to do what they do.

Which hell are we talking about? Cuz the BoM only refers to the fire and brimstone one that opposes heaven.

Butt other doctrine speaks of other Hales in the forms of the two lower kingdumbs where you aren't with a-hole polygamy god. And the outer darkness where you have to chillax with Lucifer and his minions forever in darkness.

What punishment are you picturing that would be appropriate?

We can only improve by self awareness. If the animal abuser is not self aware enough to shrink away from hurting other beings then it's back on the Big Wheel for another round for him.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:59 am Which hell are we talking about? Cuz the BoM only refers to the fire and brimstone one that opposes heaven.

He's talking about the mechanics of the final judgment. Mosiah 2:38:

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Mormon 9:4:

Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

It's pretty consistent on this point throughout.

Here's my big problem with it: it's the beginning of Mormonism's conflation of guilt and shame. Most Mormons believe in a very judgmental god, who is anywhere from disappointed to angry when you sin. Hell, he'll even reject you altogether. So when you sin, not only do you feel normal, healthy guilt, but you also feel shame: you fear rejection by God, or at least that God will think you're worth less. In this state, it's not possible to feel like you're safe and belong, which Mormons mistake for the Spirit, so you become absolutely sure that God doesn't accept you anymore.

Every religion with a judgmental god places this burden on its members. I think of grace as a cool hack that lifts it. Fundamentalist Christian religions (including Mormonism) tend to like to put it back.

At any rate, I have a hunch that most Mormons don't understand the difference between guilt and shame (e.g. that guilt is other-focused while shame is self-focused), because most always experience guilt and shame together. I didn't understand the difference until I couldn't believe in God anymore, and stopped experiencing internalized shame when I did something wrong.

My current belief about hell--it's right here, right now. After we die, things get better. Or so I hope...

The LDS hell in the BoM sounds pretty medieval...

The LDS hell post-D&C seems pretty universalist... (except for outer darkness)

the two lower kingdumbs where you aren't with a-hole

at first I thought you were referring to the TK Smoothie...

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:52 am So, you have someone who is a total creep: hurts people, lies, cheats, kills, hurts animals,...etc. And....<<drum roll>>....he feels bad for what he did and that is the whole punishment?

I think it is proper for the individual emerging from the heavenly memory lounger to have regrets for mistakes they made during the course of experiencing their virtual life. After all, it was fully mentioned in the marketing brochure they were presented with upon entering The Plan, Inc. Should they also experience cuts and bruises when they regain consciousness? That could cut down on business for The Plan, Inc.

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:31 am I think it is proper for the individual emerging from the heavenly memory lounger to have regrets for mistakes they made during the course of experiencing their virtual life.

Virtual Life is interesting. I'm sure you've seen my extensive posting on NDEs on this site. In seriousness, there is some compelling arguments that we are, as you say, living a "virtual life".

That idea changes EVERYTHING about the concept of "punishment".

Archimedes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:32 pm We can only improve by self awareness. If the animal abuser is not self aware enough to shrink away from hurting other beings then it's back on the Big Wheel for another round for him.

When you say "back on the Big Wheel for another round for him"...are you referring to reincarnation or something else?