NOM

Recently the Vatican has published an article that details the Prosperity Gospel movement in America, and how it perverts the Gospel of Christ. In a nutshell, the idea that God will always reward the faithful with health and wealth is a dangerous spiritual doctrine. It denies the reality of the trials of life, and makes God a heavenly vending machine.

Here is a link to the full article: https://laciviltacattolica.com/the-pros ... different/

The article also points out one of the spiritually dangerous consequences of belief in a prosperity gospel: a lack of empathy for those facing health and economic hardship. The corollary of the doctrine of prosperity is that those who aren't healthy, or who are poor or down on their luck have brought their misery upon themselves, and therefore can be ignored or judged by the faithful. A related doctrine is the believers who are healthy and wealthy must therefore be more pious than those who are not.

Growing up and going to school in Utah, it amazes me just how much this prosperity gospel is interwoven into life along the Wasatch Front. Prosperous men are granted positions of religious leadership based upon the belief that they have been rewarded by God for their piety. The poor, the homeless, the unemployed, etc., can be left to their own devices because, after all, aren't they merely reaping the bitter fruits of wickedness or impiousness? It is truly unbelievable how much this doctrine seems to explain within the core of Mormondom.

What do you think?

The poor, the homeless, the unemployed, etc., can be left to their own devices because, after all, aren't they merely reaping the bitter fruits of wickedness or impiousness

The interesting thing is Mosiah 4 specifically decries thinking 'that poor person brought it upon themselves, let them suck it up'. Of course there is an overarching theme of 'and the righteous prospered in the land' that tends to drown out that particular note, combine that with the the hidden barb often contained within the idea of the American Dream and it doesn't surprise me that, American at least, Mormonism has a strong prosperity gospel streak.

Good for the Vatican. Prosperity Gospel is a disgusting perversion of the teachings of Christ, and the Vatican is exactly right about its negative effect on empathy. Christ made it pretty clear that he wasn’t about money - and Joel Osteen has made it pretty clear that he is.

But as Ian Anderson so memorably put it:

If Jesus saves, well He'd better save Himself
From the gory glory seekers who use His name in death

Christ doesn’t seem to do much about those who use His name to enrich themselves and exploit the stupidity of the masses.

How do you dare to tell me
That I'm my father's son,
When that was just an accident of birth?

I loved this article.

I think Mormonism is mixed on teaching the prosperity gospel, at least for material prosperity and health. With respect to tithing, I think it's clear that the church mostly teaches the prosperity gospel.

In practice, its teachings on material prosperity seem to depend on location and politics. Mormons with more individualistic ideologies (e.g. many Mormons in red states) tend to latch on to a few scriptures and the many conference messages that support the prosperity gospel, and ignore scriptures like Mosiah 4.

But I think it's good to keep in mind that, in Mormonism, the heavenly vending machine actually dispenses spiritual prosperity.

In this respect, Mormonism is one of the most hardcore purveyors of the prosperity gospel. After editing away the bits about material blessings, this quote describes Mormonism perfectly:

One of the characteristics of these movements is the emphasis placed on the covenant written by God with his people, his witnesses in the Bible. And above all they look to the alliance with the patriarchs. So the text of the alliance with Abraham has a central place, in the sense of guaranteed prosperity. The logic of this concept of “the God of the covenants” is that, as Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham, they are also the inheritors [...]. Rather than a biblical alliance, it sounds like a contract.

[...]

In these theologies, the filial belonging of Christians as children of God is reinterpreted as that of “Children of the King”: sonship that brings rights and privileges [...] to those who recognize and preach it. Harold Hill, in his book How to be a Winner, wrote: “King’s kids are entitled to receive special treatment because they have a firsthand winning relationship with their heavenly Father who has made all things and continues to be Lord of all.”

In Mormonism, the currency for the heavenly vending machine is obedience. The contract says if you put some obedience in, it dispenses a spiritual blessing.

If you put in prayer, scripture reading, keeping the sabbath day holy, etc., then it dispenses the Spirit, your very own Liahona. If you put in prayer with real intent and faith in Christ, then it dispenses knowledge. If you put in family prayer and gospel living, then it dispenses faithful children. If you put in tithing, then it dispenses... well, usually material blessings, going by conference talks. Sometimes it dispenses... less material blessings, but everything is spiritual to God, so it's all good.

What if the heavenly vending machine doesn't work?

Silly goose, the machine always works! You have a contract with God himself that says so! Make sure you check behind the machine in case something fell out and rolled away while you weren't looking. Nothing there? Okay, well, the prices might be different for you than for me, so try putting more obedience in.

So if you put in more prayer, then maybe it will dispense heterosexuality, or at least the strength to accept it as a lifestyle. If you put in confessing to your bishop and maybe the addiction recovery program, then maybe it will dispense the enabling power of the atonement. If you put in more scripture study, then maybe it will dispense more testimony to counteract those anti-Mormon lies. If you put in more church activity, then maybe it will dispense nice feelings again, so you can stop being depressed.

The problems with this way of framing your relationship with God are the same as with expecting material prosperity or health in return for obedience. You'll think you deserve your spiritual riches, and judge people who are spiritually poor instead of empathizing with them. And if the vending machine ever stops dispensing blessings, you can drive yourself insane trying to make it work again.

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:09 am The problems with this way of framing your relationship with God are the same as with expecting material prosperity or health in return for obedience. You'll think you deserve your spiritual riches, and judge people who are spiritually poor instead of empathizing with them. And if the vending machine ever stops dispensing blessings, you can drive yourself insane trying to make it work again.

When confronted directly about the topic, church leaders always deny the vending machine gospel, but so much of what is taught implies it. I applaud the church's efforts to improve education and financial skills of members. I get concerned when there is a lack of empathy for people coming from a difficult spot.

Good find, I once brought up prosperity gospel in a tithing lesson as a negative thing and there was much gnashing of teeth amongst the faithful.

If there is no reward why would you pay tithing? I think the church is full into this concept. Remember when you were a believer and you thought your house would burn down if you skipped a payment

In our area they almost always pick a rich dude to be the BP or SP so the church reinforces this doctrine quite a little bit. You could go down the line and see most of them are lawyers, doctors or independent business folks with boatloads of moolah.

I was in my SES calling when my SP remarked that health issues are also part of the prosperity gospel, this SP was my primary care physician at the time.

Just want to stir the pot a little by pointing out that having "the faith not to be healed" is an anti-prosperity-gospel doctrine.

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:09 pm Just want to stir the pot a little by pointing out that having "the faith not to be healed" is an anti-prosperity-gospel doctrine.

It’s not so much that as Elder Bednar covering his butt because he can’t heal anybody. He intended it as an excuse for being an impotent apostle, not as an argument against prosperity gospel.

(And impotent doesn’t always automatically refer to sexual dysfunction, although I know that is what you are all thinking).

I had this discussion recently with BIL. If we have to have faith to not be healed cuz it's all in God's hands anyway, then what's the difference if the priestcraft is part of the equation or not? I would be happier to have my wife say a heart felt prayer in my behalf than for my "ministers" to give me a proper priesthood blessing.

There is no actual authority or power in the priesthood, and at least my wife genuinely cares for me.

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:09 pm Just want to stir the pot a little by pointing out that having "the faith not to be healed" is an anti-prosperity-gospel doctrine.

Funny thing is I know absolutely no one that believes this. I don’t even think Bednar believes this.

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:19 pm

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:09 pm Just want to stir the pot a little by pointing out that having "the faith not to be healed" is an anti-prosperity-gospel doctrine.

Funny thing is I know absolutely no one that believes this. I don’t even think Bednar believes this.

Perhaps Elder Bednar was running out of ideas when he came up with that phrase. He didn't want the audience hanging.



It is a very conservative thing to come up with grandiose ideas about why someone enjoys undue wealth or privilege. It is schadenfreude to come up with uncomplimentary ideas as to why some people do not possess wealth and privilege.

So my father, with whom I have vast political and ideological disagreements, bemoaned this prosperity gospel and its strangle hold on the Wasatch Front just yesterday. Imagine that. It's a real thing.

"Big house. Big boat. Nice cars? They're simply signs that God favors me and what I did to get my money was therefore righteous. It is right that I am a Stake President..."

During the peak of my faith crisis, I noted that the BoM says specifically that those who keep the commandments of God will prosper in the land SIX TIMES. Over and over and over. And it’s the discovery that it was patently false was a big help in my mental departure.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 pm In our area they almost always pick a rich dude to be the BP or SP so the church reinforces this doctrine quite a little bit. You could go down the line and see most of them are lawyers, doctors or independent business folks with boatloads of moolah.

I was in my SES calling when my SP remarked that health issues are also part of the prosperity gospel, this SP was my primary care physician at the time.

If we are being honest rich dudes tend to make better bishops. They may have egos but the tend to be better managers and have the time to devote to the job. How is an overworked retail worker going to be able to handle all those reponsibilities. Making poor or average earners bishop just adds stress they do not need.

1smartdodog wrote:

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 pm In our area they almost always pick a rich dude to be the BP or SP so the church reinforces this doctrine quite a little bit. You could go down the line and see most of them are lawyers, doctors or independent business folks with boatloads of moolah.

I was in my SES calling when my SP remarked that health issues are also part of the prosperity gospel, this SP was my primary care physician at the time.

If we are being honest rich dudes tend to make better bishops. They may have egos but the tend to be better managers and have the time to devote to the job. How is an overworked retail worker going to be able to handle all those reponsibilities. Making poor or average earners bishop just adds stress they do not need.

Ask Bill Reel your friendly local carpet salesman how that worked out for him.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:

1smartdodog wrote:

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 pm In our area they almost always pick a rich dude to be the BP or SP so the church reinforces this doctrine quite a little bit. You could go down the line and see most of them are lawyers, doctors or independent business folks with boatloads of moolah.

I was in my SES calling when my SP remarked that health issues are also part of the prosperity gospel, this SP was my primary care physician at the time.

If we are being honest rich dudes tend to make better bishops. They may have egos but the tend to be better managers and have the time to devote to the job. How is an overworked retail worker going to be able to handle all those reponsibilities. Making poor or average earners bishop just adds stress they do not need.

Ask Bill Reel your friendly local carpet salesman how that worked out for him.

To clarify my comment. I'm not disparaging Bill's former job while he was bishop in the least. I'm disparaging the ridiculous prosperity leadership filter. Who wouldn't want Bill as their Bishop? I would take him over my regional sales manager vice president bishops any day.

Wow, I enjoyed that article. My respect for Pope Francis continues to grow. Never thought I'd say that the Catholic Church is leading the charge to get Christ back into Christianity.

The LDS church, on the other hand, has turned into a pitiful glory grab. I know a kind gentleman who was a mission president a few years back. I'd only seen him for a short while and he began blabbing about how he had been a mission president, as if I didn't know. Is that not pitiful? I was nonplussed. How did he expect me to react? Way to go sir. A mission president indeed. I actually thought less of him for feeling like he needed to tell me. My sister says she also ran into a friend from the past. Two sentences or so into the conversation and her friend is spewing out how he had been a mission president. Who cares? I know I don't. Not me.

The one exception that I know and respect a great deal is Dieter U. Friend of mine happened to bump into Dieter a few years back. My friend had been less active most of his life and didn't know who the grey fox was. Dieter was standing by himself, leaning against a wall in temple square in Salt Lake, looking at the Christmas lights. My friend approached Dieter and introduced himself. Kindly gesture. Good ol' Dieter also introduced himself, "I'm Dieter. Pleased to meet you." No President this or any other title. Given name and a great big smile. My friend told the story and we all laughed. But there's a message there.

When did the church evolve into the wealthy getting the most attention? Others have touched on this better than I am able to so I will say no more.

Anyways, great article. Thanks for sharing.