NOM

So I’ve been faking for a long time for a lot of reasons. I say NOM stuff but my life looks TBM so while I get occasionally frowned at and corrected I’m still welcomed.

The SP asked DH and I to meet with him today. No reason why and when I said to my DH (TBM who refuses to read the essays) we would never go to any other meeting with anyone if we didn’t know the agenda or topic he got mad. We’ve been bumping along nicely with my unbelief so I was surprised and defensive and then we argued. Mainly probably because I realized once again that we get along about this BECAUSE nothing has changed for him. I pretend and go along and go to church and hold callings. Yes callings plural. At home he has always left the spiritual teaching to me and has not said a word about my stopping scripture study. I still do fun FHE and I enjoy evening singing and prayer together for the good bonding I feel it does. I’m also vocal about the history of the church and areas they need to change but I’m careful and respectful. But if it weren’t for me, we wouldn’t even Have what little we do at home. It’s amazing to me how upset he gets over these little evidences of my unbelief. He is one of those believers that lives the big pieces I guess-church attendance and WOW, but doesn’t read or study or teach the kids or really know much about his religion. Sigh.

Anyway, I know the calling is for me because he just got called into a bishopric. I told him last night that I’m ready to say that I don’t have the testimony anymore to hold a big calling. And he said, as he does, that he is always on my side and will support me. Then he stomped around all night angry and upset but refused to talk with me about it.

I’m nervous. I may cave. We live in a very Mormon community and I don’t want my kids or spouse to be affected socially and they will be. I’ve seen it happen. I also have a couple adult children planning temple marriages and I don’t want to be excluded. I also don’t want to be a project. I’m fine where I’m at and I view being active as the sacrifice I’m making for my kids. It’s not that hard really. I skip out whenever I feel like it, I don’t go to anything I don’t want to (see enrichment) and I make sure the kids learn the real history. I feel like I only have a few more years left of this and then my slow fade can continue into a complete disappearance.

So I guess this was really a rant or vent or brain dump because I have no one to discuss this with in real life and because I figured some of you who have outed yourselves (or didn’t) may have some advice for me.

What I hope to be strong enough to do is say no to anything that’s in a presidency by sharing my lack of the testimony needed/required to be in one of those callings. No details and maybe I get to keep my TR?

Don’t give any details if you can avoid it. Telling him that you’re really struggling with testimony and feel that it’s not the right time for you to accept whatever calling he extends. It’s much harder for him to argue against your feelings (he’ll try anyway) when extending you the calling is based entirely in his own feelings.

Whatever it is you can always fall back on the often used line "I need to pray about it, I'll get back to you!" Then wait a few weeks and send a text suggesting you're not feeling it's the right time at this point in your life.

I really admire anyone here who goes along to get along. It's probably the toughest spot to be in within Mormonism. It's like we care but we don't care. We care about family but don't care about the church. I've found it best to share absolutely nothing about my relationship with the church. Why tell them anything if you are still having to stay in for family?

Anon70 wrote:I feel like I only have a few more years left of this and then my slow fade can continue into a complete disappearance.

I totally get this. Someday I think I'm going to just ride this out until my youngest is done with high school then walk away from everything and join a monastery in the himalayas where I can be at peace away from Mormonism.

The less they know about your testimony or lack there of, the better for you. If you use the excuse of not having a testimony, or really struggling, you are likely to become a project as they try to fix you. A simple “No” is all that is needed to turn down a calling. If you absolutely feel you have to give justification, use the idea of your husband being in the bishopric as “between his new calling and everything else, we are just too busy.” Mormons respect busy people. They do not respect people who no longer believe. So, my recommendation after some 30 years as an active non believer is keep your reasons away from testimony issues, or you may find yourself having to prove you have a strong testimony in order to get a TR. there are testimony questions in the TR interview. When all your children are married and the TR is no longer an issue is a better time to let them know about testimony problems.

alas wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:43 pm So, my recommendation after some 30 years as an active non believer is keep your reasons away from testimony issues, or you may find yourself having to prove you have a strong testimony in order to get a TR.

Can confirm. In my last TR interview, I had to bear my testimony of something. Never had to do that before. My bishop was fairly progressive, too.

The TR interview is really about establishing that you're one of the tribe.

I think it's based on personality types too, both the interviewer and the interviewee - because I've done the exact opposite as those commenting here, and I still have a TR. I think it depends on who you are, and who is interviewing you.

I was pretty clear on my nuanced views, said multiple times "I just don't believe as YOU do, and you should be good with that," and while it took three visits to secure it, I still walked out with my TR intact. My SP, a good friend, just has no clue what the issues are, so I let him know. He didn't know how to process much of what I told him, I was non-confrontational in a "just the facts, ma'am" kind of thing, so at the end I think he just gave in and gave it to me. A few months later and I have a stake calling, so I give the dude a bunch of credit to do that after getting ready to poleaxe me. It's a great story, that I will tell when I'm ready. So I think if you push back a bit on the things you do believe in, rather forcefully, and you know your stuff and the issues, it can be a good thing.

But that's me, and that's him. It might be totally different for you and your SP, so caution is probably the best approach.

I’m glad I read these before I went. I decided to be cautious. It ended up being DH’s dear friend extending the calling to me. I caved.

But a couple of “wins” are that the calling will put me with my kids. Another is I’ll get released from my other callings. First time with one calling in 4 years. The other win was surprising. On the way out I said “part of me wonders about discernment..haha” (trying to joke with my DH). And he said that he feels that I have an opportunity to influence people with this calling in regards to my strong feelings about equality in the church, the way we indoctrinate the youth, and also historical issues-an element of my call will be to teach and I do love to drop some historical facts in when I get the chance. He was very supportive and assured me again he’d support me in being my unorthodox self. But we’ll see about that. He was probably mostly relieved that I said yes and so the status quo wasn’t disrupted.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:28 pm I’m glad I read these before I went. I decided to be cautious. It ended up being DH’s dear friend extending the calling to me. I caved.

But a couple of “wins” are that the calling will put me with my kids. Another is I’ll get released from my other callings. First time with one calling in 4 years. The other win was surprising. On the way out I said “part of me wonders about discernment..haha” (trying to joke with my DH). And he said that he feels that I have an opportunity to influence people with this calling in regards to my strong feelings about equality in the church, the way we indoctrinate the youth, and also historical issues-an element of my call will be to teach and I do love to drop some historical facts in when I get the chance. He was very supportive and assured me again he’d support me in being my unorthodox self. But we’ll see about that. He was probably mostly relieved that I said yes and so the status quo wasn’t disrupted.

Good luck!!

Anon70 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 am It’s amazing to me how upset he gets over these little evidences of my unbelief.

Wow, I can really relate to your initial post. A lot.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:28 pm I’m glad I read these before I went. I decided to be cautious. It ended up being DH’s dear friend extending the calling to me. I caved.

But a couple of “wins” are that the calling will put me with my kids. Another is I’ll get released from my other callings. First time with one calling in 4 years. The other win was surprising. On the way out I said “part of me wonders about discernment..haha” (trying to joke with my DH). And he said that he feels that I have an opportunity to influence people with this calling in regards to my strong feelings about equality in the church, the way we indoctrinate the youth, and also historical issues-an element of my call will be to teach and I do love to drop some historical facts in when I get the chance. He was very supportive and assured me again he’d support me in being my unorthodox self. But we’ll see about that. He was probably mostly relieved that I said yes and so the status quo wasn’t disrupted.

And not disrupting the status quo is not necessarily a bad thing, especially in a marriage. This is why TBMs don't read the essays, they don't speak up in the face of stupidity, etc. etc. So we can play along too - and I agree with your DH, you CAN influence people to think differently about church things. There are worse things in life than doing a calling, and if you can do it your way, so much the better. I made that choice myself, and it's working out so far. We'll see about the support from the higher ups when they REALLY don't like what we're doing with the callings they gave us, but for now, it's good. The stake feels righteous for calling the sinners, we are excited to enact change, TBM spouses are happy we're engaged more, it's a win-win-win all the way around. Until the crap hits the fan - but I'm ready for that too!

Good luck with all of this.

Yay!!! I'm glad this worked out for you!!

I’ve been feeling like a hypocrite.

I go to meetings. I speak. I do my calling. I support the stake initiatives. Then I get online and gripe about the church. I’m not a believer but I pretend to be one. I don’t lie-I don’t teach or bear testimony of anything. I’ve already vented about all my “reasons” why I’m being a hypocrite but it’s really not justification. If I had any integrity or courage I’d just stop already.

But at the last meeting it all kind of hit me. These people believe who I’m faking to be. That makes me a liar. Feels pretty gross.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:10 pm But at the last meeting it all kind of hit me. These people believe who I’m faking to be. That makes me a liar. Feels pretty gross.

That's how my last TR interview felt. Realizing that I was being made to choose between dignity and integrity was the proverbial last straw.

I don't know what to tell you. The StayLDS folks would say there's a difference between lying and not being transparent - keeping things private. It's true that we present different personas in different contexts. We blend in. But I always felt that in this case, the required difference in persona was great enough that what I was doing was more like hypocrisy.

There was the ever-present fear that I would get it wrong and out myself, too.

Blending in like this has costs: the mental overhead of speaking "sheep-ese" without technically lying, having to keep track of the big differences between who you are and what others probably think about you, and the cognitive dissonance of living with those differences. Some people are in a better position to pay the costs, or just have to pay them, or find that the benefits outweigh them, or have to pay less.

FWIW, feeling cognitive dissonance in this situation is normal. Cognitive dissonance is like guilt, but isn't necessarily attached to a feeling of responsibility or compassion. I bet you're experiencing this in spades, with a generous side of disgust.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:10 pm I’ve been feeling like a hypocrite.

I go to meetings. I speak. I do my calling. I support the stake initiatives. Then I get online and gripe about the church. I’m not a believer but I pretend to be one. I don’t lie-I don’t teach or bear testimony of anything. I’ve already vented about all my “reasons” why I’m being a hypocrite but it’s really not justification. If I had any integrity or courage I’d just stop already.

But at the last meeting it all kind of hit me. These people believe who I’m faking to be. That makes me a liar. Feels pretty gross.

I understand why you feel this way, but don’t. You didn’t create this situation, and you are dealing with it the best way you know how given the broken hearts and damaged relationships that hang in the balance. It’s not your fault the Church isn’t what it claims to be, and it’s not your fault it’s so intrusive, demanding, oppressive, rigid, and intolerant, it’s not your fault it uses your family against you. Most of us would leave in a second if we were able to do so without hurting those we love.

Feel no guilt over this. You are doing the best you can in a situation you didn’t create, and you are doing it out of love and respect for family.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:10 pm But at the last meeting it all kind of hit me. These people believe who I’m faking to be. That makes me a liar. Feels pretty gross.

This is the biggest reason DW hated me having any type of leadership calling. Even when the BP knew my situation. She would say, "these parents assume you are a believer..." (When I was YM president)

Reuben wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:17 pm Can confirm. In my last TR interview, I had to bear my testimony of something. Never had to do that before. My bishop was fairly progressive, too.

The TR interview is really about establishing that you're one of the tribe.

I know of people who would tell the Bish at the start of the interview that they needed to keep it quick for XYZ* reason. They had to take care of business and then leave. That helped to keep the meeting to the whatever the topic is. If things veered off script, then they could call for it to get back by playing the limited time card. That helped to keep the interviewer from doing too much improv.

*Had another appointment, needed to prep a classroom, need to meet other people before SM, etc.

Reuben wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:48 pm I don't know what to tell you. The StayLDS folks would say there's a difference between lying and not being transparent - keeping things private. It's true that we present different personas in different contexts. We blend in. But I always felt that in this case, the required difference in persona was great enough that what I was doing was more like hypocrisy.

There was the ever-present fear that I would get it wrong and out myself, too.

Blending in like this has costs: the mental overhead of speaking "sheep-ese" without technically lying, having to keep track of the big differences between who you are and what others probably think about you, and the cognitive dissonance of living with those differences. Some people are in a better position to pay the costs, or just have to pay them, or find that the benefits outweigh them, or have to pay less.

I like to think I am a person of integrity, but I don't feel that bad playing along, and I think this is why. Even as a TBM, I knew from a young age that I didn't do Mormonism right, I didn't think right, and I learned how to "fit in" by censoring myself (I was definitely never transparent with my true feelings or beliefs). After coming to the conclusion that I wasn't the problem, but the church was, I just keep doing what I've done for the past couple of decades. At this point, it's just a habit and I suppose it's dishonest. The difference is, I used to be dishonest with myself and now I'm dishonest, or simply not transparent, with an organization that refuses or doesn't want to acknowledge or hear that I think differently.

Reuben wrote: ↑Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:17 pm Can confirm. In my last TR interview, I had to bear my testimony of something. Never had to do that before. My bishop was fairly progressive, too.

Ugghh. I hated that and being asked to pray. I like to think if it ever happens again I'd say something like, "Why don't you go first?" or "Exactly what am I supposed to be praying for?" I have no idea why Mormons say half the prayers they do. So much for "vain repetitions."