Stone of a Greenish Caste . . .

[felixfabulous]

I'm curious on your theories about the golden plates. There is one quote that seems very credible and seems to throw a curve ball in a lot of theories:

Josiah Stowell
7 Nov, 1832
Josiah Stowel, being by me sworn, saith... that Smith, the prisoner, went in the night, and brought the Bible, (as Smith said;) witness saw a corner of it; it resembled a stone of a greenish caste; should judge it to have been about one foot square and six inches thick; he would not let it be seen by any one; the Lord had commanded him not; it was unknown to Smith, that witness saw a corner of the Bible, so called by Smith; told the witness the leaves were of gold; there were written characters on the leaves;

This seems to have been one of the few people to actually have seen what was under the cover. The other story that seems to confirm this is from Pomeroy Tucker in 1867 about the two "notorious wags" who removed the cover and exposed a tile brick. This seems less credible, but lines up with what Josiah Stowell says and seems to point to the golden plates being some kind of large stone or brick of greenish color.

But the bulk of the accounts seem to show that there was something under the cover that had leaves and rings and could pass for plates.

Do you think Joseph initially used a stone or brick in the box and then used a better prop later on? Were the plates with a compound of oxidized copper giving them a greenish caste?

[Palerider]

Interesting that you should mention the Pomeroy Tucker statement. The first time I read it was in a modern day newspaper article from Palmyra, celebrating the early days of the town of Palmyra and some of it's early characters such as Joseph Smith.

According to Pomeroy, he and a friend went to visit Joseph Smith with the intent to view the gold plates. Joseph indicated they could only be seen under cover of a cloth and that it would cost them a dollar.

They produced the dollar and gave it to Joseph and he produced the plates. Then one of them distracted Joseph while the other jerked the cloth away to reveal some sort of brick or ceramic tile.

Both men then verbally set upon Joseph, wanting their money back after exposing his fraud. Joseph being the good natured, fast talker that he was, suggested that all three of them take the dollar down to the local pub and buy each man a round of ale, to which they all agreed.

As I recall there was no mention of the color of the tile or brick. But I didn't have any reason to discount the story. As you say, it seems to line up fairly well with the account of Josiah Stowell, in my opinion.

[Corsair]

Do you think Joseph initially used a stone or brick in the box and then used a better prop later on? Were the plates with a compound of oxidized copper giving them a greenish caste?

That's a reasonable hypothesis. There is no way to prove it at this point. Apparently there is some journal entry about Emma moving the plates under the cloth and feeling some metallic pages. Like many faith promoting rumors in the LDS church, this is presented as a piece of evidence for the plates without dealing with a list of skeptical alternative.

The challenge with apologists and the the church is that the veracity of the gold plates is simply assumed. I do not know of any way to verify the contents underneath that cloth at this point in history. Apologists have pointed out that the presence of something under that cloth has to accounted for. They certainly go on about plates of gold or even copper assuming that it's the divine source of the Book of Mormon. I would simply respond that it's not my job to disprove the existence of the gold plates. I have some significant skepticism about the text of the Book of Mormon and I don't have to explain what was under the cloth to justify my non-belief.

[Hagoth]

I think the most likely thing to consider is that Josiah Stowell was a gullible mark, like Martin Harris, who saw what he wanted to see. Joseph led him around for years almost finding treasure, only to have the guardian ghost trick them out of it at the last moment, and Stowell fell for it time after time. He was probably the biggest dupe in the Smiths' entire treasure digging venture.

Here's a printing of one of the contracts that involved Stowell and the Smiths: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ber-1825/1

Another problem with the Stowell testimony is that God told Joseph he would kill him if anyone saw the plates. Stowell supposedly saw them through Joseph's carelessness but God didn't notice. Additionally, this is yet another testimony that does not fit Joseph's description of the plates. According to Joseph the plates were 6X8 Inches, significantly smaller than Stowell's "one foot square."

In a bizarre twist, the widow Harper mentioned in the contract was the wife of one of the diggers who was murdered shortly after Joseph was purported to have claimed that the ghosts wouldn't hand over the treasure until one of the members of the club sacrificed his life for the cause.

Another point of interest about the contract is that one of the witnesses was Isaac Hale, Emma's father. We hear a lot about how Hale was opposed to Emma marrying Joseph because of his scrying, but that's because Hale was involved in the treasure-digging but became disillusioned when he came to the conclusion that Joseph was running a con.

Sorry about the detour. My conclusion: no gold plates, just people really wanting to believe in gold plates.

Joseph was an amazing opportunist. When intruders uncovered the place where Joseph said the plates were hidden he said, "whew, good thing I just moved them!" When asked how the plates got from Harmony to Palmyra he said, "Did you see that old guy with a knapsack? That was an angel carrying the plates." There are dozens of stories like that.

[Thoughtful]

In a bizarre twist, the widow Harper mentioned in the contract was the wife of one of the diggers who was murdered shortly after Joseph was purported to have claimed that the ghosts wouldn't hand over the treasure until one of the members of the club sacrificed his life for the cause.

Wait, WHAT?

[Hagoth]

I was just reading about this in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinat ... 322&sr=1-1
Of course, there might be problems with the provenance of the statements, but apparently multiple witnesses made this claim. They also spoke very matter-of-factly about the sacrifice of dogs and sheep in the money digging rituals.

This is a fascinating book with a lot of new research. I'm only about half way through but, although I'm a bit leery of some of the author's leaps of logic, I am impressed with all of the information she has dug up ( ) about the Smiths' involvement in treasure hunting. I haven't even got the the maind counterfeiting topic yet. Equally interesting are the connections to other families who were involved with the Smiths in treasure-digging, rodsmanship, ect, even long before the Smiths moved to Palmyra and before any mention of the gold plates: the Cowderys, the Youngs, the Rockwells, the Hales, the Kimballs, the Macks... and their connections to other key characters like Solomon Spaulding, Lumen Walters, and Ethan Smith.

[felixfabulous]

I'll have to check out that book. To me, there just seem to be too many people who saw some kind of physical object covered and quite a few people who handled something to have not been anything resembling plates. I think Dan Vogel makes a compelling case that they were made of tin and Joseph dislocated his thumb on one of the rings as he was bringing them back. I just don't know how that fits in with the greenish stone story and the the tile brick.

[Hagoth]

I'll have to check out that book. To me, there just seem to be too many people who saw some kind of physical object covered and quite a few people who handled something to have not been anything resembling plates. I think Dan Vogel makes a compelling case that they were made of tin and Joseph dislocated his thumb on one of the rings as he was bringing them back. I just don't know how that fits in with the greenish stone story and the the tile brick.

There was definitely something heavy in the cloth and in the box that the witnesses "hefted." One of the earliest accounts claims that Joseph started by trying to pass a bag of sand off as the plates as a joke, but credulous people believed him. I think its very likely that he may have proceeded through a series of progressively more sophisticated artifacts over time, possibly starting with something like sand, then letting people lift a box full of tiles and finally producing a tin replica. He was up to something in that cave that he and his family dug with Lumen Walters on Cole's property. The thing we have to deal with is that those who believed Joseph's story projected gold plates inside the cloth/box, while those who didn't believe him reported sand, tiles, etc. The observers of a plane crash see a tragedy. The survivors see a miracle.The other thing we can't forget is the widely diverse descriptions of the plates, which implies that people were feeling and lifting different objects or that they were just relating stories about what they assumed the plates are like. Whatever was going on, an angel with a real golden book written by ancient American prophets is the least likely explanation by a long, long shot.

I can imagine that the dislocated thumb was another example of Joseph taking advantage of a situation to add another piece of evidence for his story. "Dang, I dislocated my thumb. Hey, I can say it happened in a fight over the plates!" in the same way an old dude with a knapsack becomes an angel carrying gold plates. The way that story plays out of him encountering three separate guys equally spaced in the woods and standing directly in his path, and then fighting them off one-handed while running with the plates just sounds like a tall tale to me.

[Thoughtful]

I'm curious on your theories about the golden plates. There is one quote that seems very credible and seems to throw a curve ball in a lot of theories:

Josiah Stowell
7 Nov, 1832
Josiah Stowel, being by me sworn, saith... that Smith, the prisoner, went in the night, and brought the Bible, (as Smith said;) witness saw a corner of it; it resembled a stone of a greenish caste; should judge it to have been about one foot square and six inches thick; he would not let it be seen by any one; the Lord had commanded him not; it was unknown to Smith, that witness saw a corner of the Bible, so called by Smith; told the witness the leaves were of gold; there were written characters on the leaves;

This seems to have been one of the few people to actually have seen what was under the cover. The other story that seems to confirm this is from Pomeroy Tucker in 1867 about the two "notorious wags" who removed the cover and exposed a tile brick. This seems less credible, but lines up with what Josiah Stowell says and seems to point to the golden plates being some kind of large stone or brick of greenish color.

But the bulk of the accounts seem to show that there was something under the cover that had leaves and rings and could pass for plates.

Do you think Joseph initially used a stone or brick in the box and then used a better prop later on? Were the plates with a compound of oxidized copper giving them a greenish caste?

I'm reading Early Mormonism andthe Magical World view, and a "stone of a greenish caste" is mentioned as one of JS three seer stones, but not his favorite one.