NOM

...6 days. 9 if you stop to sleep.

The rhetoric in Old Testament class is that 40 years in the wilderness was needed to kill off all of the old, unrighteous Jews who still pined for the old days of pagan influence in Egypt. This is not an optimistic view of the Children of Israel.

It did take 40 years for Mormons to really get away from plural marriage. From 1890 to 1930 the church could let the older generation die off and get the next generation used to living with the plain old monogamy that Brigham Young decried. I would push this further and say that it will similarly take at least 40 years to unload the current set of leaders clinging to the silliest of orthodox LDS positions. The problem is that you don't know what new brand of foolishness they might embrace in the the next 4 decades. Nor does it sound like I want to spend an entire generation enduring the pablum of modern LDS orthodoxy waiting for them to figure out what is actually essential as followers of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I've heard that but it seems like blowing smoke. It doesn't make a lot of sense that they couldn't manage to arrive anywhere until those guys died off. They could just as well die at the destination as on the journey.

There are so many other inconsistencies with this story that make it sound like a fairy tale. Like the fact that God had to feed the Israelites with mana and quail and yet he commands them throughout the books of Moses to sacrifice large numbers of their cattle, goats and sheep, and even refers to their herds. God also makes a few slips when he talks about stone buildings and city walls while they are supposedly wandering the dunes and living in tents.

Then there's the little problem of Moses' story being borrowed from the origin story of Sargon of Akkad, whose mother put him as an infant in a reed basket and sent him floating down the river where he was later rescued by the king's gardener and raised in the royal household, only to rise up and proclaim himself a great leader and liberator. Sargon lived 1000 years before Moses. It seems pretty obvious that the authors of the OT heard the story during their captivity and retooled it for their own needs.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:32 pm It did take 40 years for Mormons to really get away from plural marriage. From 1890 to 1930 the church could let the older generation die off and get the next generation used to living with the plain old monogamy that Brigham Young decried. I would push this further and say that it will similarly take at least 40 years to unload the current set of leaders clinging to the silliest of orthodox LDS positions.

Sounds about right. 40 years since the 1978 priesthood revelation and today's youth can't believe such a doctrine (I mean policy!) ever existed. Of course the church still can't apologize, but then again, they never renounced the doctrine of polygamy either...

You've never hiked with Deacons before have you?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm You've never hiked with Deacons before have you?

I have hiked with Deacons, but it was never my intent to kill them off from exhaustion.

Modern Biblical scholars are saying that the people who mixed with the Canaanites who were already in the area and became the nation of Israel took stories from many places and cobbled them into a national narrative. So, they took stories about slaves (no more than a handful) escaping Egypt, embellished them, added other myths, a few Just So Stories, and came up with a cultural identity. There is still Canaanite DNA in Jews, so No, Joshua did NOT fight the battle of Jericho and kill off everyone. They intermarried. There is ZERO archeological evidence of a group moving in and conquering. There is zero evidence of a large group wandering around the area for 40 years. There is zero evidence that there was a sudden transition in culture or people. Zero. No Joshua, no walls tumbling down, no Moses, no huge escape of slaves from Egypt. And think about it, wouldn’t there be history in Egypt of losing that many slaves? That does not exist either. But this mongrel group of Canaanite, Hittites, whateverites needed a story to unite them into a nation. They were a collection of tribes that needed ONE story of “our” people. So, they made up a story. Poof, you have the first part of the Bible. About the time of David, the experts believe there is some actual history to the Bible. Before that, it is a collection of legends, mythology, pagan stories, and out right fabrication.

Put that idea out in Sunday school and see what happens.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:41 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm You've never hiked with Deacons before have you?

I have hiked with Deacons, but it was never my intent to kill them off from exhaustion.

You're a much nicer scout leader than I was.

For those who may be interested. Here is a good book on biblical archeology.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FBJG86/re ... TF8&btkr=1

Short Story:

No evidence of the exodus or living in the desert for 40 years with hundreds of thousands of people, etc.

Lots of evidence of even minor people and minor camps in the desert.

Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know.

Good evidence that the wonders of architecture attributed to solomon were probably a hundred or more years after that possible timeline.

Nice read.

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:19 am Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know.

This seems to be a running theme with my apologist type friends. Does this constitute deception on the part of God? Isn't he intentionally making it look like something happened that didn't really happen? How is this reconciled with a God that is not capeable of deception?

alas wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:03 pm So, they took stories about slaves (no more than a handful) escaping Egypt...

Which did happen in small groups at the time of the attack of the Sea Peoples, which started in the time of Ramses II, so it's easy to see how such a story could persist.

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:19 am For those who may be interested. Here is a good book on biblical archeology.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FBJG86/re ... TF8&btkr=1

Thanks man, just ordered it.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 am

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:19 am Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know.

This seems to be a running theme with my apologist type friends. Does this constitute deception on the part of God? Isn't he intentionally making it look like something happened that didn't really happen? How is this reconciled with a God that is not capeable of deception?

The funny thing is that this line of reasoning works just as well for every other crazy-a$$ religious story you can imagine. A race of giant purple Yeti used UFOs to build the pyramids? You just gotta believe.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:41 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:29 pm You've never hiked with Deacons before have you?

I have hiked with Deacons, but it was never my intent to kill them off from exhaustion.

Not even towards the end of the hike? They get quite obnoxious when they’re tired, but not quite exhausted.

OMG you guys! Have a little faith. I mean he totally live streamed the whole thing on FB live:
Sheesh! Come on, doubt your doubts!

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:19 am Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know.

And God let the Devil put all those dinosaur and caveman bones in the ground...or was it Jesus, the creator? It's all part of the test.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 am This seems to be a running theme with my apologist type friends. Does this constitute deception on the part of God? Isn't he intentionally making it look like something happened that didn't really happen? How is this reconciled with a God that is not capeable of deception?

Ding, ding, ding! 100 points for critical thinking! Now stop that and go and pray your faith back!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:54 pm The funny thing is that this line of reasoning works just as well for every other crazy-a$$ religious story you can imagine. A race of giant purple Yeti used UFOs to build the pyramids? You just gotta believe.

And Bingo was his name oh!

The bible has it almost at bad as the BOM, the most incorrect book ever written category.

The Jews have that whole special chosen people narrative that JS and his cronies wanted: restrictive dietary standards, killing in name of God, special cloths, lots of special rules, temple ceremonies and lots of borrowed ideas that have been regurgitated, parroted, plagerized and resued over and over again; all designed to control and manipulate via fear and guilt. How many architypes are there of Christ? About a dozen I think. All of that religious madness unwravels if you apply your critical thinking skills to it and do some investigation. Then you start to see the same patterns in governements and political parties. Tribalism and emotions were are the dominant controllers for most humans and those who know how to use the tricks of those trades become the masters of many.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:09 pm The bible has it almost at bad as the BOM, the most incorrect book ever written category.

But that almost covers a big gap. The Bible talks about many real people, places, and events that can be verified by other sources. BoM? Zero.

I read something somewhere that the first character in the bible that there is actual historical evidence of their existence was King David. So that means that about half of the NT, there is no proof that they ever existed. If you start throwing out people that there should be info on where isn't, you get rid of a lot of the bible.

Even King David according to historical evidence is completely different from the biblical account.

Sorry, I don't remember where I got that from.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:39 pm I read something somewhere that the first character in the bible that there is actual historical evidence of their existence was King David. So that means that about half of the NT, there is no proof that they ever existed. If you start throwing out people that there should be info on where isn't, you get rid of a lot of the bible.

Even King David according to historical evidence is completely different from the biblical account.

Sorry, I don't remember where I got that from.

Even the parts of the Bible that can be tied to actual people and events are likely incorrect on basic issues. I remember reading that there is evidence that King Ahab was viewed much more favorably by his people than he is portrayed in the OT. I suspect that the Bible is almost entirely propaganda. It may not have been written by the military victors, but they were the social winners from that time and place.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 am

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:19 am Somehow God must have erased the evidence so we can have..... Faith. You know.

This seems to be a running theme with my apologist type friends. Does this constitute deception on the part of God? Isn't he intentionally making it look like something happened that didn't really happen? How is this reconciled with a God that is not capeable of deception?

The waters get even muddier when you consider that the OT does lightly cover some actual history and places that did exist. God then gets in the business of erasing all evidence for some events but not for others.

JS took a very literal approach in his restoration of all things. Now people are beginning to question whether some of the figures were indeed historic or just composites of old tribal leaders or borrowed myths. How much church doctrine unravels by moving biblical figures from the historical realm to the mythological realm?

Feel free to fill in the blanks.

Adam - too much to unpack

Noah - there's equally little proof of a global flood, there are civilizations that kept good records that show a continuous history through a period that covers the time period of the flood. Implications on Mormon doctrines? Maybe not so much. No baptism of the earth.

Tower of Babel - the same civilizations that kept their records kinda show that there wasn't an event where the languages were suddenly divided. The whole thing feels more like a story people told to explain why there were multiple languages than anything else. Implications? Mostly the literalness gets tied up in the BoM with the Jaredites.

Abraham - Mormon doctrines are very tied up in Abraham. What if Abraham were a mythological figure, a composite of old tribal leaders that got embellished in the oral traditions? Of course that would have implications on more than just Mormonism.

Moses - What would we lose if Moses were not historical? The gathering of Israel. The AP.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:09 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:09 pm The bible has it almost at bad as the BOM, the most incorrect book ever written category.

But that almost covers a big gap. The Bible talks about many real people, places, and events that can be verified by other sources. BoM? Zero.

Good point! The only real people and places the BOM has would be from the chapters it plagerized from the bible.