NOM

Apologists have suggested in the Book of Mormon that:

1. Sheep meant llamas.
2. Cattle meant either mountain goats, llamas, or the ancestor of the American bison.
3. Goats referred to native Mesoamerican brocket deer.
4. Swine referred to peccaries.
5. Wheat and barley referred to Hordeum pusillum.
6. Silk referred to in the hair of rabbit's bellies or pods of the ceiba tree.
7. Chariot may refer to a non-wheeled vehicle.
8. Steel refers to a hardened metal other than iron.
9. Swords referred to the macuahuitl club with obsidian blades.
10. Cimiters (scimitars) may have referred to some sort of knife.

So, did Joseph Smith mean horse when he wrote down the word horse?

Of course he meant "horse." He didn't know any better, which is why it's such an ongoing problem.

Did he mean "some random dude totally unrelated to the Book of Mormon narrative" when he said, "Zelph?"

moksha wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:02 am 8. Steel refers to a hardened metal other than iron.

They really need to just give up on this one. People in the Maya region did not use any metal of any kind during the BoM period. Not even gold, and certainly not as a writing surface. North Americans did use copper, but it was cold-hammered, which precludes any kind of hardening technique.

Some apologists have gone as far as saying that "steel" is a loan shift for "obsidian." If you have to go that far to keep yourself convinced I have some Guatemalan swamp land I'd like to sell you.

One piece of "evidence" for metallurgy that really irks me (and please pardon me for ranting about this yet again) is the apologetic claim that the Olmec were mining and refining iron ore during Jaredite times, when they know damn well that what was really being mined was hematite which was polished into beads and mirrors.

moksha wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:02 am So, did Joseph Smith mean horse when he wrote down the word horse?

I would await Hagoth to show up with his avatar picture. He presents an orthodox interpretation from FairMormon.

I’m mostly curious as to why, if God simply used the words Joseph would understand, we have cureloms and cumoms in the BoM.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:51 pm I’m mostly curious as to why, if God simply used the words Joseph would understand, we have cureloms and cumoms in the BoM.

Because if we didn't have those words there would be no room for faith.

Lamanite warrior and his majestic steed....

Hermey wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:23 pm Lamanite warrior and his majestic steed....

What...no chariot???

A horse is a tapir, of course, of course,
And no one can ride on a tapir of course
That is, of course, unless the tapir is the famous Mr. Peterson

Go right to the source and ask the tapir
He'll give you the answer that the BoM is a caper.
They're lucky the BoM didn't mention a rapier.
Talk to Mr. Peterson.

There is only one reason to change the meaning of words. Their actual definition means that what you believe is NOT true.

And for most mormons the only thing that cannot change in their life is their belief that the mormon church is true. And if that is at risk, then anything can be put on the altar of truth to be sacrificed. Including the standard and normal definition of words.

Translation now means inspiration.
Steel now means obsidian lined clubs.
Doctrine now means opinions or policy.
Truth means feelings.

And on and on we go.

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:06 am There is only one reason to change the meaning of words. Their actual definition means that what you believe is NOT true.

And for most mormons the only thing that cannot change in their life is their belief that the mormon church is true. And if that is at risk, then anything can be put on the altar of truth to be sacrificed. Including the standard and normal definition of words.

Translation now means inspiration.
Steel now means obsidian lined clubs.
Doctrine now means opinions or policy.
Truth means feelings.

And on and on we go.

I wonder how a bow of fine obsidian would work?

A good followup question is what the hell did he mean by curelom and cumom? And if your going to use stupid made up words for those why "loan shift" everything else? Apologist arse-hats.

Is there a list of all the made up words? That would be a good counter to the every day words the apologist use to try and nuance the BOM ridiculousness.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:50 pm

Is there a list of all the made up words? That would be a good counter to the every day words the apologist use to try and nuance the BOM ridiculousness.

Do you mean actual made up words like curelom and Zarahemla? If you really want a list of everything that’s made up it starts with “I Nephi...”

If horse actually meant tapir it really creates the question of why were they mentioned at all unless they were an indication of the owner's power? What power does a tapir lend to its owner?

If they are just being mentioned as a note on biodiversity it seems that monkeys would have been quite interesting to reference as well.

Cureloms and Cumoms were mentioned because of their usefulness as I recall. Of course it is conveniently not mentioned what they were used for. But we know what horses are used for especially in connection with the word "chariot". Ammon is said to "prepare the kings horses and chariots".
This presents a picture of a relatively advanced form of transportation, power and warfare. When Ammon goes to feed the kings horses are we to envision a set of stables full of tapirs?

Horses are mentioned numerous times in conjunction with goats, wild goats and cattle of every kind. I wonder what all those goats and cows really were? I mean, if horses aren't "horses" then goats probably aren't "goats" are they?

You know I happen to own some very fine horses and it occasions the removal of horse bisquits from time to time and there is no doubt that I can recognize horse $h!t when I see or smell it. I'm particularly aggravated by supposedly educated people who try to convince me to consume it, just because they are full of it.

Joseph Smith knew what a God Damn horse was and when he said/wrote/dictated "horse" he meant Horse. If he meant curelom he woulda said/wrote/dictated "curelom."

Sheesh.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:09 am I wonder how a bow of fine obsidian would work?

Obsidian doesn't even make good arrow points, it is too brittle. Arrow points and the older Clovis points were more often made of chert, flint, jasper or other hard knappable stone.

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:06 am There is only one reason to change the meaning of words. Their actual definition means that what you believe is NOT true.

And for most mormons the only thing that cannot change in their life is their belief that the mormon church is true. And if that is at risk, then anything can be put on the altar of truth to be sacrificed. Including the standard and normal definition of words.

Translation now means inspiration.
Steel now means obsidian lined clubs.
Doctrine now means opinions or policy.
Truth means feelings.

And on and on we go.

And don't forget, some definitions only change depending on the anatomy the person has. For example: blessing always means blessing and ordain always means ordain as long as the officiator has a penis. If not, then blessing means "prayer of faith" and ordain means "set apart."

There is no way to reconcile this in my mind. It's inconsistent. If God would tell JS about a Curlom (or whatever the word is),...then he could have used the word Tapier. God is God...right?

Or, was God just sending confusing things to 'test our faith'?

You know, I read somewhere that JS rode down the middle of Nauvoo with on his horse with a big cigar in his mouth. He was testing the people to see if they were converted to the gospel or to him.

What a JOKE! What a MOCK! That's like someone saying...don't yell at your child, because that is God's will...then going and yelling at your child to just see if they believed you despite your poor example.

nibbler wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:32 am A horse is a tapir, of course, of course,
And no one can ride on a tapir of course
That is, of course, unless the tapir is the famous Mr. Peterson

Go right to the source and ask the tapir
He'll give you the answer that the BoM is a caper.
They're lucky the BoM didn't mention a rapier.
Talk to Mr. Peterson.

Hopefully, someone can bring their guitar to the Sunstone Symposium and sing Nibbler's Horse is a Tapir song to the crowd.