Update--Help me write my talk.

[MoPag]

So I have to give a talk this Sunday on recognizing and developing gifts of the spirit.

I need your guys help to NOM the sh!t out of this talk.

I know when I talk about the gift of healing I will tell the story of Jane Manning James administering to the sick child the other elders had given up on.

But what else? Any ideas?

[IT_Veteran]

Yeah, I got nothing. Maybe you could talk about that time you prayed and found your keys? Or passed a test you'd studied for?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

You would be well served discussing the evolution of the healing liturgy found in this amazing article:

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/our-rites- ... ouring-oil

Highlights:
Talks about Brigham drinking consecrated oil, also his oil enemas, use of canes and handkerchiefs, baptisms for health in the temple, etc.

[Mormorrisey]

So I have to give a talk this Sunday on recognizing and developing gifts of the spirit.

I need your guys help to NOM the sh!t out of this talk.

I know when I talk about the gift of healing I will tell the story of Jane Manning James administering to the sick child the other elders had given up on.

But what else? Any ideas?

My main suggestion, as you tell the story about Jane Manning James add, "James, who incidentally was sealed to Joseph Smith as his eternal servant, then administered to the sick child...." That would make my day.

My main challenge with talks like this is how the individual needs to separate the "spirit" from one's own emotions. I would mention that somewhere and drill down a bit on this idea. Good luck, can't wait to hear how this goes!

[IT_Veteran]

So I have to give a talk this Sunday on recognizing and developing gifts of the spirit.

I need your guys help to NOM the sh!t out of this talk.

I know when I talk about the gift of healing I will tell the story of Jane Manning James administering to the sick child the other elders had given up on.

But what else? Any ideas?

My main suggestion, as you tell the story about Jane Manning James add, "James, who incidentally was sealed to Joseph Smith as his eternal servant, then administered to the sick child...." That would make my day.

My main challenge with talks like this is how the individual needs to separate the "spirit" from one's own emotions. I would mention that somewhere and drill down a bit on this idea. Good luck, can't wait to hear how this goes!

Somewhat related to that - I have a problem with the way the church defines the spirit in general. If you have a good feeling about something, that's the spirit confirming to you, but only if it confirms what the church teaches. If you have good feelings about something that leads you away from the church, that's Satan tempting you and impersonating the spirit.

So depend on your feelings to lead you through life, but only the feelings that keep you in the church... Ugh.

[Red Ryder]

Time to pull out the heartsell manual.

The last time I gave a talk (8 years ago) I took the audience on a spiritual roller coaster ride. If done right, you can talk them right up to the edge of the spiritual orgasm and then quickly pull back, teasing and repeating over and over while entertaining the audience. Add in a few feel good stories, an overly used couplet or two and you have just given the best talk ever!

Let me explain with an example:

I remember a time in my life when I was really struggling with something. I had spent a week or two reading my scriptures and pondering my thoughts. (Insert long drawn out pause!)

(In a quiet emotionally toned voice, slowly releasing your next words...) I had been praying for an answer... (pause and hold that lip quiver) and suddenly felt inspired to call my grandma. (Insert another long drawn out pause!)

As I followed the prompting, I called her and she gave me the best guacamole recipe ever that she found on the internet. I just love my grandma!

Here's another example:

One of the gifts of the spirit is confirmation of truth. The spirit will confirm truth if we love and keep the commandments and renew our covenants weekly by taking the sacrament. I recently experienced these blessings when attending church a few weeks ago. Brother Smith was bearing testimony of the truth of the gospel and I felt the spirit soooo strong. (Insert long drawn out pause...) at that moment I realized sitting in the chapel that I needed to be here today! (Long pause....) As I looked down at the floor I realized there were Cheerios everywhere. I hate the smell of Cheerios!

[MerrieMiss]

I never stay on topic for any of my talks. I kind of just start with it, come up with some good things I want to talk about, and if it doesn’t go with the topic, oh well. “The spirit wanted me to talk about this today instead.” Oh, and don’t underestimate the power of proof texting some scriptures and quotes to make the talk appropriate and gospel based.

If I go down the path that we are our own Holy Ghost (see topic in doctrinal discussion topics, and not that I would say any of that over the pulpit), then I guess developing gifts of the spirit would mean something along the lines of developing ourselves in whatever way that makes sense.

I really like Alison Gopnik’s analogy of parenting and the carpenter and the gardener. One kind of a parent is a carpenter: there’s a blueprint, they follow the directions, and the idea is that they can create the kind of person that the directions say will result. Then there’s the gardener: You’re given a handful of seeds, plants, dirt and climate/soil conditions, and you nurture what you’ve got to see how it grows – you can’t a make a conifer out of a calla lily. The church (and I would argue Abrahamic god) is a carpenter. I’d rather be a gardener. So, if Heavenly Father is a parent, and if I believe he is the kind of parent who is nurturing and not prescriptive, then I would do what I can to nurture my own spiritual development (whatever that is, and wherever that may take me).

Rambling thoughts. Take them for they are worth.

[StarbucksMom]

Why not just start talking and subtly change the subject to the fruits of the spirit from Galatians?

There's lots of great stuff in these verses!
Galatians 5:22-23 King James Version (KJV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The background of why Paul wrote it is very interesting, from what I understand Paul was upset that Christians had fallen into living under "rule of mosaic law" instead of Christlike love. Hmmmmm, living under strict law and forgetting Christ???? Why does this seem familiar? This page gives a brief, easy to understand overview:
https://www.insight.org/resources/bible ... /galatians

I really like this:

What's the big idea?

When the Galatians fell away so quickly from the gospel of grace Paul had preached to them, they also made clear their disloyalty to Paul’s authority as an apostle. Therefore, Paul began the letter to the Galatians by spending two chapters defending that very issue. Only in chapter 3 did he begin to get to the heart of their error; namely, that these Galatians sought to be justified by the Mosaic Law. In contrast, Paul presented his argument that justification comes to people by faith in Jesus Christ, not by their works under the Law.

Part of the problem that confronted the Galatians came in one of the arguments made by the Judaizers. These false teachers suggested that to live by grace and in freedom meant to live a lawless and therefore degenerate life. And so in the final chapters of the letter, Paul made clear that justification—an act of grace through faith—need not result in a sinful lifestyle. Because Christians have been freed from bondage to the sinful nature, we now have the path of holiness open to us.

You could totally talk about how God wants us to live by the fruits of the spirit above--mainly love, gentleness, being good, having faith----and NOT by a bunch of man (ummm, "modern prophet") made rules. If you do this I want to come!!

[redjay]

how to develop discernment - but let the congregation know that can be a tough one for even the best of us, as we know by Mark Hoffman episode.

then you could say that even Joseph got confused when God or the Devil was giving him revelations, as we know from the time sent someone to sell the copyright of the BoM in Canada, which was a complete failure.

So the gifts of the spirit can be developed, but it's a tricky business.

[deacon blues]

Use this if you want:

April 19, Tues. Relief Society Minutes(Eliza Snow?) Mrs. Durfee bore testimony to the great blessing she received when administered to after the close of the last meeting, by Emma Smith and Counselors Cleveland and Whitney. She said she never realized more benefit through any administration, [and] that she was healed and thought the sisters had more faith than the brethren." (Relief Society Minutes, 19 April 1842) (from Ehat and Cook, "The Words of Joseph Smith" pg. 140, note 2)

[deacon blues]

Or this:

April 28, Thurs.-- Relief Society Minutes: "He (Joseph Smith) said the reason of these remarks being made was, that some little things was circulating in the Society, that some persons were not going right in laying on hands on the sick, &C. Said if he had common sympathies, would rejoice that the sick could be heal'd, that the time had not been before, that these things could be in their proper order-- that the Church is not now organiz'd in its proper order, and cannot be until the Temple is completed. Prest. Smith continued the subject by adverting to the commission given to the ancient apostles "Go ye into all the world" &C. No matter who believeth; these signs such as healing the sick, casting out devils &C. should follow all that believe whether male or female. He ask'e the Society if they could not see by this sweeping stroke that werein they are ordained , it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority which is conferred on them-- and if sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on......
I (Joseph Smith) now deliver it as a prophecy that before ten years shall roll around, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this Society-- they shall come with their millions and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the poor-- If you will be pure, nothing can hinder." (Ehat and Cook, "The Words of Joseph Smith," pg. 115-16)

[Reuben]

Mormons are obsessed with having spiritual talents and supernatural abilities. They love to suppose that they each have a magic 8-ball in their chest that tells them right from wrong, true from false, when to visit a sister, what to say in a blessing, and whether to extend a calling. By supposing this and believing that it's either unique to Mormonism or enhanced within Mormonism, they have yet another way to lift themselves up above the rest of humanity.

If I were giving the talk as a believer, I would focus on the #1 most important gift of the Spirit in Mormon doctrine that's never talked about: being cleansed from sin. It's ridiculous that this is the very most important thing doctrinally but the very least important thing culturally. A bit weirdly, believing it helps equalize things. It relieves Mormons of the burden of judging themselves, which reduces their motivation to judge everyone else.

If I were giving the talk as an unbeliever, I would target the issue of collective arrogance more directly by giving examples of spiritual gifts that are all outside of Mormonism.

[wtfluff]

My main challenge with talks like this is how the individual needs to separate the "spirit" from one's own emotions. I would mention that somewhere and drill down a bit on this idea. Good luck, can't wait to hear how this goes!

Possible threadjack: Can you explain how to distinguish between the "spirit" (ghost?) aond on'es own emotions Mormorrisey?



Personally, in any talk about the "spirit" (ghost) I would include that one can feel the "spirit" absolutely anywhere.

[Mormorrisey]

My main challenge with talks like this is how the individual needs to separate the "spirit" from one's own emotions. I would mention that somewhere and drill down a bit on this idea. Good luck, can't wait to hear how this goes!

Possible threadjack: Can you explain how to distinguish between the "spirit" (ghost?) aond on'es own emotions Mormorrisey?

Personally, in any talk about the "spirit" (ghost) I would include that one can feel the "spirit" absolutely anywhere.

I'll try not to threadjack and answer this simply!

Nope, to be honest I have no clue how to distinguish the two in a mormon sense any more, and to me, that's the entire point of discussing it in a talk. Despite what Elder Nelson said about revelation, it's a very tricky matter to me, trying to figure out meanings, feelings, your "conscience" or whatever you want to call it, from what God really wants you to do. I DON'T think it's simple anymore, and I would agree with you very much that the "spirit" can be felt anywhere. That's why, I suspect, when Nelson berated that poor young guy for not blessing his baby properly, yet didn't explain HOW to do it, it's because there IS no real explanation.

I hope I'm being sufficiently obtuse.

[Mormorrisey]

If I were giving the talk as a believer, I would focus on the #1 most important gift of the Spirit in Mormon doctrine that's never talked about: being cleansed from sin. It's ridiculous that this is the very most important thing doctrinally but the very least important thing culturally. A bit weirdly, believing it helps equalize things. It relieves Mormons of the burden of judging themselves, which reduces their motivation to judge everyone else.

I like this idea too. I think this is not talked about enough.

[wtfluff]

My main challenge with talks like this is how the individual needs to separate the "spirit" from one's own emotions. I would mention that somewhere and drill down a bit on this idea. Good luck, can't wait to hear how this goes!

Possible threadjack: Can you explain how to distinguish between the "spirit" (ghost?) aond on'es own emotions Mormorrisey?

Personally, in any talk about the "spirit" (ghost) I would include that one can feel the "spirit" absolutely anywhere.

I'll try not to threadjack and answer this simply!

Nope, to be honest I have no clue how to distinguish the two in a mormon sense any more, and to me, that's the entire point of discussing it in a talk. Despite what Elder Nelson said about revelation, it's a very tricky matter to me, trying to figure out meanings, feelings, your "conscience" or whatever you want to call it, from what God really wants you to do. I DON'T think it's simple anymore, and I would agree with you very much that the "spirit" can be felt anywhere. That's why, I suspect, when Nelson berated that poor young guy for not blessing his baby properly, yet didn't explain HOW to do it, it's because there IS no real explanation.

I hope I'm being sufficiently obtuse.

Dammit. I thought I'd finally found someone with a solid, verifiable answer.

Maybe you should have gone with: ♫ Some spirits are bigger than others... ♫

[EternityIsNow]

It seems that the gifts of the spirit are best identified after the fact. Hindsight is 2020. This is actually somewhat biblical. Consider the idea of by their fruits you shall know them. And then discussion of the fruits of the Spirit. As quoted above.

There is another perspective. Gifts of the spirit can be our skills and talents that must be developed. There are many creative skills that I think fall in the category of seeming to be spiritual.

I suspect many times what people perceive as spiritual knowledge is in fact creativity. And creativity is a complicated ability that requires great sensitivity to one's feelings and thoughts. I would bet that the vast majority of spiritual impressions people believe they receive are the same phenomenon as artistic creativity. This is a topic experts still do not fully understand.

President Nelson came to my stake conference a few weeks ago. His wife spoke about how he wakes up in the middle of the night with ideas and writes them down. To her that was part of the proof that he is a prophet. To me this is an example of Mormons misinterpreting creativity as divine inspiration. Because that is a very well-known creative event, when we are resting our minds are relaxed we have an easier time being creative or finding creative solutions to our problems.

Sorry if this does not help much with the talk, mostly thinking through the topic. But I did give a true story about President Nelson . I have another one. Back in the 90s my mother was walking with President Nelson once in Africa. She was there as part of a church calling. They were with some French speaking Africans and President Nelson said he felt the gift of tongues coming over him and he suddenly started speaking fluent French. At that time he regularly claimed he did not speak French and my mother believed this was the gift of tongues, spiritual gift. But a few years later I read somewhere he had studied the language in college. So he seems to have cultivated a talent and then rebranded that as a spiritual gift. Perhaps in his more lucid moments he remembers his French class better. It was an interesting experience. Apparently he did this often when speaking to congregations in Africa. Saying he felt the gift of tongues then speaking in French.. Which to me sounds a bit like a gimmick he was using to get their attention. But who knows, maybe he is just gifted with languages, there are people like that, who learn languages incredibly fast. Maybe this is also related to creativity. I wonder if he has been speaking French lately?

Perhaps this has been too deep for a talk on gifts of the Spirit. But I believe ability to learn a second language as a big cause of Mormons believing in spiritual gifts. I experienced that myself on a foreign mission. I believed I had a gift of the spirit because I learned the language so fast. Later I discovered that many people can learn languages fast when they are immersed in it. Not just Mormon missionaries. But still. Some people do have gifts to learn things quickly, why not consider those gifts of the spirit also. I don't think we have to make a great deal about supernatural parts of spiritual gifts. Historically, I believe the idea of spiritual gift comes from awe towards human abilities we do not understand. Why not simply celebrate that fact. I think if I were giving the talk I would include gifted artist, authors, some academics and scientists and others, as people who have spiritual gifts. How do we know those are not gifts from God? I would try to bring the topic down to earth a bit.

[Not Buying It]

how to develop discernment - but let the congregation know that can be a tough one for even the best of us, as we know by Mark Hoffman episode.

then you could say that even Joseph got confused when God or the Devil was giving him revelations, as we know from the time sent someone to sell the copyright of the BoM in Canada, which was a complete failure.

So the gifts of the spirit can be developed, but it's a tricky business.

Along those lines, I will never be asked to speak in Church again, but if I was, I have this fantasy of sharing Elder Holland’s “missionary story for the ages” in its original version, get the members “feeling the spirit”, say “can you feel the Spirit in this room? Can you feel the power of the Holy Ghost that this story has brought into your heart?”, and then say “there is only one problem - Elder Holland had to retract the story because it wasn’t true. It didn’t happen the way he originally shared it. What you are feeling now is not the Spirit confirming truth, because the story was not the truth.” See https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... story.html

I would go on: “Brothers and sisters - this illustrates conclusively that we cannot rely on our feelings as a guide to truth. If Elder Holland was fooled by this story and shared it thinking it was a ‘missionary story for the ages’, ordinary members like you and I have no hope of discerning what is God speaking to us and what is merely our own thoughts and emotions. God gave you a brain - you must use it to determine what it is true, because your thoughts and emotions are an unreliable guide”.

That’s my fantasy anyway, but it will never happen.

[Not Buying It]

I can't resist sharing Elder Holland's comments about the ridiculous story when he first told it not knowing he would have to retract it:

“The Holy Ghost prompted those parents to keep praying, to keep believing, to keep trusting. … The Holy Ghost inspired that rebellious boy to come to himself like the prodigal he was and to head for California. … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those to elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …

“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”

Elder Holland said the young elder, without realizing it, gave the missionary speech of all time, when he said to his brother, “God has sent me here to invite you to come home.”

The Holy Ghost this and the Holy Ghost that - but the Holy Ghost apparently didn't tell Elder Holland the story wasn't true. Ha ha.

[Mormorrisey]

Possible threadjack: Can you explain how to distinguish between the "spirit" (ghost?) aond on'es own emotions Mormorrisey?

Personally, in any talk about the "spirit" (ghost) I would include that one can feel the "spirit" absolutely anywhere.

I'll try not to threadjack and answer this simply!

Nope, to be honest I have no clue how to distinguish the two in a mormon sense any more, and to me, that's the entire point of discussing it in a talk. Despite what Elder Nelson said about revelation, it's a very tricky matter to me, trying to figure out meanings, feelings, your "conscience" or whatever you want to call it, from what God really wants you to do. I DON'T think it's simple anymore, and I would agree with you very much that the "spirit" can be felt anywhere. That's why, I suspect, when Nelson berated that poor young guy for not blessing his baby properly, yet didn't explain HOW to do it, it's because there IS no real explanation.

I hope I'm being sufficiently obtuse.

Dammit. I thought I'd finally found someone with a solid, verifiable answer.

Maybe you should have gone with: ♫ Some spirits are bigger than others... ♫

Sorry for wimping out. Right now, thing's are more like "something is squeezing my skull."