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the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:17 am
by slavereeno
So if I decide on the slow fade...
Option 1 is slip into inactivity, let the TR lapse, stop wearing polygamy pannies, stop the financial bleed of tithing, evade and gaslight all rescue efforts.
Option 2 What is the bare minimum necessary to keep a TR? Lie on an interview every two years, attend sacrament meeting once a quarter, claim to pay tithing anonymously online, say no to callings? Wear garments to church stuff but nothing else?
I would do this to avoid any real confrontation, it's the cowards way. Just wondering how little I can get away with.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:41 am
by IT_Veteran
slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:17 am
So if I decide on the slow fade...
Option 1 is slip into inactivity, let the TR lapse, stop wearing polygamy pannies, stop the financial bleed of tithing, evade and gaslight all rescue efforts.
Option 2 What is the bare minimum necessary to keep a TR? Lie on an interview every two years, attend sacrament meeting once a quarter, claim to pay tithing anonymously online, say no to callings? Wear garments to church stuff but nothing else?
I would do this to avoid any real confrontation, it's the cowards way. Just wondering how little I can get away with.
I think that's going to depend entirely on the local leadership. Some will give you a TR even knowing you struggle with testimony, hoping you'll feel the spirit at the temple if you go. Most will require you to attend more frequently than once/quarter IMO. The tithing part is fairly simple because if you do it through autopay, it's anonymous.
Something I've noticed in my own life though, I'm simply unwilling to lie about that stuff. Partly because my wife knows where I'm at and I think she would find it offensive. Personally though, I think that when I was being dishonest with myself and others about my belief and participation in the church, it affected my mental and emotional health negatively. I think knowing I was not being honest about it was harder on me than simply giving it up. I know I may not be the norm though.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:57 am
by alas
IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:41 am
slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:17 am
So if I decide on the slow fade...
Option 1 is slip into inactivity, let the TR lapse, stop wearing polygamy pannies, stop the financial bleed of tithing, evade and gaslight all rescue efforts.
Option 2 What is the bare minimum necessary to keep a TR? Lie on an interview every two years, attend sacrament meeting once a quarter, claim to pay tithing anonymously online, say no to callings? Wear garments to church stuff but nothing else?
I would do this to avoid any real confrontation, it's the cowards way. Just wondering how little I can get away with.
I think that's going to depend entirely on the local leadership. Some will give you a TR even knowing you struggle with testimony, hoping you'll feel the spirit at the temple if you go. Most will require you to attend more frequently than once/quarter IMO. The tithing part is fairly simple because if you do it through autopay, it's anonymous.
Something I've noticed in my own life though, I'm simply unwilling to lie about that stuff. Partly because my wife knows where I'm at and I think she would find it offensive. Personally though, I think that when I was being dishonest with myself and others about my belief and participation in the church, it affected my mental and emotional health negatively. I think knowing I was not being honest about it was harder on me than simply giving it up. I know I may not be the norm though.
I agree that for me, trying to lie in a TR interview is not the way to go. But not so much because my spouse man would find it offensive as because I find it offensive. So, I vote for the slow fade. Along with in forcing boundaries. Just get a few statements in your head to say to any rescue efforts. Things like, "I no longer find that the church works for me, and no, there is nothing you could do to change that."
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:13 pm
by Mormorrisey
IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:41 am
I think that's going to depend entirely on the local leadership. Some will give you a TR even knowing you struggle with testimony, hoping you'll feel the spirit at the temple if you go. Most will require you to attend more frequently than once/quarter IMO. The tithing part is fairly simple because if you do it through autopay, it's anonymous.
I can't highlight this enough, how it will play out is entirely up to your local leaders. I've played this game for over 5 years now, and while I haven't told the story yet, being VERY up front with my concerns and "faith crisis" nearly cost me last go around. The first four years, I was very candid in my interviews, and it didn't seem to faze anybody, and I received my TR. However, my last interview with the stake (and I won't go into the reasons why I need my TR, but I do right now) didn't go nearly as well, and it took a couple of follow up visits to ensure I got one. So it really depends on how desperately you want a slow fade - I think option 1 works well for everybody, when option 2 requires a little more nuance from all concerned. As one who has specialized in number 2 for several years now, it just fits my personality - I'm very upfront with my concerns, but because not many people in my neck of the woods know the issues, they just generally let crazy Bro. M alone for the most part. So it just works. But option 1 might work better.
Have you prayed about it?
Good luck in the way you choose!
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:38 pm
by Angel
I did not let my TR expire, I turned it in. My DH had his taken away, and I guess I wanted to be there with him through that experience. We still go to church for the kids, we have no callings now, not even HT/VT/ministering ... some people know, others don't. We sit there quietly... it is still a good community and for the most part good people. I don't mind talking with anyone who is concerned for us - will not push anyone away... you never know who else out there needs support. Honesty with everyone is best. I guess I'm lucky to have my DH with me though, I know others have Harder family situations to get through. Prayers your way!
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:12 pm
by blazerb
I have let my TR lapse. I may regret that someday, but I can't take the nuanced approach. It just does not work for me.
My leaders have not made any inquiry into my issues. Maybe they think they know what my issues are, or maybe they don't want to know. It seems weird, but I think it's nice. I don't really want to lead anyone out of the church, or even seem like that is what I want.
I think you have to do what looks best for you at the time. Somehow it will work out.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:10 pm
by Red Ryder
These decision tree discussions always turn inwards to integrity. Some people can't/won't lie and have to rip the band-aid off. They do. They survive. It works. Others need to keep friends and family around them happy and are people pleasers and willing to say whatever to appease and keep the TR for their benefit to attend weddings. They do. They survive. It works.
Personally the only decision that matters is your own.
Let's dissect the hierarchy of the church totem pole to help you pick your place. Let's start at the bottom.
Sons of perdition
Homosexual Mormons
Ex-Mormons
Unbelievers
Democrats
Doubters
Jack Mormons
Inactive Mormons
Half assed Mormons
Active Mormons
Apologist
Church Employees
Super Active Mormons (attends Saturday stake conf sessions, holds 3 callings)
EQP/RS
Bishops
Stake Presidents
Mission Presidents
MTC Rapists
General Authorities
Investment LLC's
Past Prophets
The Current Prophet
Humor not withstanding, you have to understand this nuance. A doubter has more credibility than an unbeliever. A half assed mormon has more credibility than a doubter. Etc. Etc.
If you need to fit in and maintain a TR for weddings then find your place among the half assed Mormons. It's the easiest. You literally do nothing but show up on occasion and answer the TR questions appropriately. If you want to fade out and don't care about the TR then start the fade as a doubter until you publicly become an unbeliever.
If you want to go inactive but not be seen as a doubter or unbeliever than start skipping every other week, then two, three, six, twelve, etc. if you want to be a Jack mormon start skipping the same intervals above and throw enough beer into your shopping cart where your neighbors will see it. Then walk around the neighborhood with a Starbucks coffee in your left hand.
There's a lot of space between the cracks in the basketball gym floorboards. You just have to find your niche and not care what anyone else thinks about you for 3 hours a week. 1 hour is even better!
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:32 am
by MalcolmVillager
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:10 pm
These decision tree discussions always turn inwards to integrity. Some people can't/won't lie and have to rip the band-aid off. They do. They survive. It works. Others need to keep friends and family around them happy and are people pleasers and willing to say whatever to appease and keep the TR for their benefit to attend weddings. They do. They survive. It works.
Personally the only decision that matters is your own.
Let's dissect the hierarchy of the church totem pole to help you pick your place. Let's start at the bottom.
Sons of perdition
Homosexual Mormons
Ex-Mormons
Unbelievers
Democrats
Doubters
Jack Mormons
Inactive Mormons
Half assed Mormons
Active Mormons
Apologist
Church Employees
Super Active Mormons (attends Saturday stake conf sessions, holds 3 callings)
EQP/RS
Bishops
Stake Presidents
Mission Presidents
MTC Rapists
General Authorities
Investment LLC's
Past Prophets
The Current Prophet
Humor not withstanding, you have to understand this nuance. A doubter has more credibility than an unbeliever. A half assed mormon has more credibility than a doubter. Etc. Etc.
If you need to fit in and maintain a TR for weddings then find your place among the half assed Mormons. It's the easiest. You literally do nothing but show up on occasion and answer the TR questions appropriately. If you want to fade out and don't care about the TR then start the fade as a doubter until you publicly become an unbeliever.
If you want to go inactive but not be seen as a doubter or unbeliever than start skipping every other week, then two, three, six, twelve, etc. if you want to be a Jack mormon start skipping the same intervals above and throw enough beer into your shopping cart where your neighbors will see it. Then walk around the neighborhood with a Starbucks coffee in your left hand.
There's a lot of space between the cracks in the basketball gym floorboards. You just have to find your niche and not care what anyone else thinks about you for 3 hours a week. 1 hour is even better!
RR you crack me up. Thanks for the humor and always spot on advice.
Slavereeno I am right there with you. Interestingly my wife is just a few steps behind me. I will always be mormon. The question remains about activity and perceptions of others. Will I be apostate, half-assed, or Jack Mormon.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:20 am
by crossmyheart
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:10 pm
These decision tree discussions always turn inwards to integrity. Some people can't/won't lie and have to rip the band-aid off. They do. They survive. It works. Others need to keep friends and family around them happy and are people pleasers and willing to say whatever to appease and keep the TR for their benefit to attend weddings. They do. They survive. It works.
Personally the only decision that matters is your own.
Let's dissect the hierarchy of the church totem pole to help you pick your place. Let's start at the bottom.
Sons of perdition
Homosexual Mormons
Ex-Mormons
Unbelievers
Democrats
Doubters
Jack Mormons
Inactive Mormons
Half assed Mormons
Active Mormons
Apologist
Church Employees
Super Active Mormons (attends Saturday stake conf sessions, holds 3 callings)
EQP/RS
Bishops
Stake Presidents
Mission Presidents
MTC Rapists
General Authorities
Investment LLC's
Past Prophets
The Current Prophet
Humor not withstanding, you have to understand this nuance. A doubter has more credibility than an unbeliever. A half assed mormon has more credibility than a doubter. Etc. Etc.
If you need to fit in and maintain a TR for weddings then find your place among the half assed Mormons. It's the easiest. You literally do nothing but show up on occasion and answer the TR questions appropriately. If you want to fade out and don't care about the TR then start the fade as a doubter until you publicly become an unbeliever.
If you want to go inactive but not be seen as a doubter or unbeliever than start skipping every other week, then two, three, six, twelve, etc. if you want to be a Jack mormon start skipping the same intervals above and throw enough beer into your shopping cart where your neighbors will see it. Then walk around the neighborhood with a Starbucks coffee in your left hand.
There's a lot of space between the cracks in the basketball gym floorboards. You just have to find your niche and not care what anyone else thinks about you for 3 hours a week. 1 hour is even better!
I love this ranking!
I think I fall right at Unbeliever. I hope someday to earn the rank of ex-Mormon but have to wait for my mom to pass on.
My DH falls in between Inactive and Jack. I think he aspires to be half-assed though.
Slavereeno- if you still have one foot in the door, at least do the G's on Sundays. My DH wears them to church but as soon as we are home he changes into regular old Fruit-of-the-looms, which cracks me up. But it's how me makes it work for him so that he can say that we wears the garment...
Definitely go with the online-tithing story.
And accept a low-level calling and only show up for it occasionally. Like Sunday School Second Counselor...I have a friend whose husband has that calling. He really doesn't do anything, but he can still maintain his social collateral with the ward when needed.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:31 pm
by Mormorrisey
At this point, I think I'm a quarter-assed mormon.
Re: the bare minimum
Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:17 pm
by slavereeno
Such awesome posts from everyone...
IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:41 am
I think that's going to depend entirely on the local leadership.
Yep, if I decide the honest route then its going to be a game of leadership roulette. There is a counsellor in the BP and a counsellor in the SP that it may work with, but me thinks, having worked with the SP closely in the past that brutal honesty isn't going to fly.
alas wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:57 am
I agree that for me, trying to lie in a TR interview is not the way to go. But not so much because my spouse man would find it offensive as because I find it offensive. So, I vote for the slow fade.
Yes I would have to answer the TR questions the way the church answers questions, if I do this have I lost the ability to complain about the way the church answers questions?
Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:13 pmHave you prayed about it?
Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:38 pmHonesty with everyone is best.
In general yes, but one has to have the courage to do so...
blazerb wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:12 pmI may regret that someday, but I can't take the nuanced approach. It just does not work for me.
Yeah, I have been having this convo with DW, how
nuanced can I be.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:10 pmHumor not withstanding,
Haha! that list is pure gold! And, also all too true. I love how much higher on the TBM list you put MTC rapist than doubting Mormon. Unfortunate how close to the truth it is.
MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:32 amSlavereeno I am right there with you. Interestingly my wife is just a few steps behind me.
I think DW resents that I have put her in this position.
crossmyheart wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:20 amif you still have one foot in the door, at least do the G's on Sundays. My DH wears them to church but as soon as we are home he changes into regular old Fruit-of-the-looms, which cracks me up. But it's how me makes it work for him so that he can say that we wears the garment...
Yeah, still wearing them at night and sometimes during the day. So I can say I wear them day and night, ug.
Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:31 pmAt this point, I think I'm a quarter-assed mormon.
Can I start asking this at ward parties? What fraction assed Mormon are you?