NOM

I was watching some stuff on youtube from the Talk Beliefs channel and in there an ex-mormon is telling the JS story and he says the first rendition of the First Vision story has him being hit by a toad and that prevents him from getting the gold plates. https://youtu.be/WOL19cvcnnQ?t=644

This story is dismissed as not having come from JS, as in, this is hearsay about what JS said written by Willard Chase. There is an ensign article https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/08/the- ... g=eng&_r=1 that seems to address this.

It appears Mark Hoffman tried to use this tidbit to dupe the church but suggested it was a salamander. I guess I thought there was no foundation to the Hoffman letters, but it appears there is. The Ensign article dismisses this as a gross exaggeration on the part of Willard Chase and I suppose its pretty weak being hearsay anyway.

I suppose I just find it fascinating that this stuff is so wild and I am still finding crazy stuff.

Except tons of hearsay gets used and quoted in the church if it casts Joseph Smith or early church leaders in a good light.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 3:30 pmIt appears Mark Hoffman tried to use this tidbit to dupe the church but suggested it was a salamander.

And they fell for it! Dallin Oaks even wrote an essay defending it. Who knows what documents the leaders have read, but they were fooled by Hoffman's wacky stuff precisely because they were not surprised by them. They knew enough to expect things like that to come forth. And they buried it until Hoffman leaked photocopies of it and forced their hand. A moment captured by Pat Bagley:

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 7:42 pmA moment captured by Pat Bagley:

Doesn't Bagley include that cute little magic amphibian in most of his works? I'm just now noticing the (magic) hat the the little guy wears too!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 7:42 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 3:30 pmIt appears Mark Hoffman tried to use this tidbit to dupe the church but suggested it was a salamander.

And they fell for it! Dallin Oaks even wrote an essay defending it. [/img]

I remember when Elder Oaks wrote a Letter to Editor of the Salt Lake Tribune, chastising those who did not have enough faith to accept the White Salamander. I cut the letter out and pasted it on my bedroom door for when I needed a chuckle.

That was then. Today, I would expect Elder Oaks to chastise those who did not have enough faith to accept the Pure and Delightsome Salamander.

I remember reading about the toad in Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview. At one point the toad morphed into Moroni, kinda like Manimal in reverse. What was really interesting to me was that Joseph would change the story depending on who he was talking to. Quinn has accounts from different people, and for his treasure digging friends the elements of his story would get more fantastical with a lot of magical elements. Later, after the move to Ohio the magical elements got toned down and merged with a more respectable narrative.

I’ve only recently heard about the toad. Every time I read “Joseph Smith and the Toad” though, it brings to mind the BoM Musical. I chuckle every time I see this topic at the top of the list.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 10:14 pm I remember reading about the toad in Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview. At one point the toad morphed into Moroni, kinda like Manimal in reverse. What was really interesting to me was that Joseph would change the story depending on who he was talking to. Quinn has accounts from different people, and for his treasure digging friends the elements of his story would get more fantastical with a lot of magical elements. Later, after the move to Ohio the magical elements got toned down and merged with a more respectable narrative.

Whaatt??? Moroni was an animagus? http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Animagus

JS missed a golden opportunity to put that in the BOM.

This is a great story, but's it's so wild that any believer will automatically discount it like you were certifably crazy and wrong about this. "Magic Toad" sounds like a massive practical joke being played on you by a snarky apostate.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 10:15 am This is a great story, but's it's so wild that any believer will automatically discount it like you were certifably crazy and wrong about this. "Magic Toad" sounds like a massive practical joke being played on you by a snarky apostate.

Good point. That part about toads or ancient Indians causing buried treasure to sink back into the earth sounds so glass-looking. Let's stick with General Zelph and Captain Moroni.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri May 25, 2018 9:59 pm Good point. That part about toads or ancient Indians causing buried treasure to sink back into the earth sounds so glass-looking. Let's stick with General Zelph and Captain Moroni.

Sufficient for the day is the craziness of the Mormonism thereof.