NOM

I was listening to a podcast on LDS Perspectives with Don Bradley about the 116 pages. Much of what he discussed was from an 1830 interview (published in 1870) with JS Senior. I looked it up and was blown away. Very interesting magical view of the coming forth of the BOM and the BOM story. This may be old news, but it was new to me and very interesting, worth a read. http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/ ... ph1870.htm

Some quotes:

Soon after joining the Church, he had a very singular dream; but he did not tell his father of his dream, until about a year afterwards. He then told his father that, in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody. And the man said to him that there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place; and that he had now arrived for it to be brought to light, for the benefit of the world at large; and, if he would strictly follow his directions, he would direct him to the place where it was deposited, in such a manner that he could obtain it. He then said to him, that he would have to get a certain coverlid, which he described, and an old-fashioned suit of clothes, of the same color, and a napkin to put the treasure in; and go to a certain tree, not far distant, and when there, he would see other objects that he would take or keep in range and follow, until he was directed to stop, and there he would find the treasure that he was in pursuit of; and when he had obtained it, he must not lay it down until he placed it in the napkin. "And," says Smith, "in the course of a year, I succeeded in finding all the articles, as directed; and one dark night Joseph mounted his horse, and, aided by some supernatural light, he succeeded in finding the starting point and the objects in range." Following these, as far as he could with the horse without being directed to stop, he proceeded on foot, keeping the range in view, until he arrived at a large boulder, of several tons weight, when he was immediately impressed with the idea that the object of his pursuit was under that rock. Feeling around the edge, he found that the under side was fiat. Being a stout man, and aided by some super-natural power, he succeeded in turning the rock upon its edge, and under it he found a square block of masonry, in the centre of which were the articles referred to by the man seen in the dream. Taking up the first article, he saw others below; laying down the first, he endeavored to secure the others; but, before he could get hold of them, the one he had taken up slid back to the place he had taken it from, and, to his great surprize and terror, the rock immediately fell back to its former place, nearly crushing him in its descent.

In answer to our question, as to what it was that Joseph had thus obtained, he said it consisted of a set of gold plates, about six inches wide, and nine or ten inches long. They were in the form of a book, half an inch thick, but were not bound at the back, like our books, but were held together by several gold rings, in such a way that the plates could be opened similar to a book. Under the first plate, or lid, he found a pair of spectacles, about one and a half inches longer than those used at the present day, the eyes not of glass, but of diamond. On the next page were representations of all the masonic implements, as used by masons at the present day.

After sailing a long time, they came to land, went on shore, and thence they traveled through boundless forests, until, at length, they came to a country where there were a great many lakes; which country had once been settled by a very large race of men, who were very rich, having a great deal of money. From some unknown cause, this nation had become extinct; "but that money," said Smith, "is here, now, every dollar of it." When they, the Jews, first beheld this country, they sent out spies to see what manner of country it was, who reported that the country appeared to have been settled by a very large race of men, and had been, to all appearances, a very rich agricultural and manufacturing nation. They also found something of which they did not know the use, but when they went into the tabernacle, a voice said, "What have you got in your hand, there?" They replied that they did not know, but had come to inquire; when the voice said, "Put it on your face, and put your face in a skin, and you will see what it is." They did so, and could see everything of the past, present, and future; and it was the same spectacles that Joseph found with the gold plates.

Yes, this is a fascinating interview, and includes the earliest description of the gold plates. I think people would take it more seriously if it hadn't taken decades to get published.

What is really striking about this interview are the inconsistencies with later descriptions. Most striking is that the guardian of the plates was not an angel, but a blood ghost, which is more consistent with treasure seeking activities of the Smith family at the time than with the later re-imagined story.

Also, the radically different descriptions of the plates and spectacles underscore the fact that nobody actually saw these things, but were describing what they imagined them to look like, or what they saw with their "spiritual eyes". There's one really outstanding inconsistency here. Smith Sr. conforms with the contemporary local mythology that a "very large race of men" inhabited the region in antiquity. This was a rumor that was based on very unscientific exhumation and measurement of Native American remains. William Smith also subscribed to this notion and described the spectacles as being so large that Joseph could only look through one lens at a time, but in this interview his father says they were only slightly larger than normal glasses but still small enough to fit between the cover and first page of a book that was six inches wide and only a half inch thick. Joseph's mother said she handled the spectacles and breastplate when they were wrapped in a handkerchief. It doesn't add up. Despite all of the "witnesses " of these artifacts nobody besides Joseph actually saw them with their physical eyes. After all, Joseph was told that God would kill him if he showed them to anyone.

What I find most interesting is Don Bradley himself somehow found his way back to faithfulness in this narrative. He claims reverse cogdis after making several historical discoveries that convinced him of its truthfulness somehow.

Wasn't Nephi (not Moroni) part of the original heavenly manifestations?

This would explain why the clothes were bloody assuming they were the same clothes Nephi was wearing when he cut off Laban's head!

Soon after joining the Church, he had a very singular dream; but he did not tell his father of his dream, until about a year afterwards. He then told his father that, in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody.

Wow, this is simply crazy to me.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 11:32 am Wasn't Nephi (not Moroni) part of the original heavenly manifestations?

This would explain why the clothes were bloody assuming they were the same clothes Nephi was wearing when he cut off Laban's head!

Soon after joining the Church, he had a very singular dream; but he did not tell his father of his dream, until about a year afterwards. He then told his father that, in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody.

That's an interesting point... and one that makes a lot more sense considering Nephi was the original angel mentioned even though apologists call it a typo/easy mixup.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 9:22 am What I find most interesting is Don Bradley himself somehow found his way back to faithfulness in this narrative. He claims reverse cogdis after making several historical discoveries that convinced him of its truthfulness somehow.

I believe Don and I share a common factor in the rediscovery of faith. If I remember correctly, he fell in love with and married a faithful, believing Mormon woman. The cogdis never reversed for me, but I did fight valiantly it for twenty years.