NOM

After a nice 10 days or so of calm, we've fallen back into the trap of being mad at each other over church.

Our anniversary is Saturday, and yesterday I was told that she needs to spend a few hours in the afternoon for a church project. I was obviously not thrilled but just stayed quiet about it... she knew I was not thrilled and asked... I told her it was fine but it's just weird that the one thing we can't talk about is now a part of our anniversary, and of course she knows it's not fine since that's been an ongoing source of contention lately.

Just so difficult sometimes.

So sorry jfro! This stuff hurts so much, and just by being hurt about church stuff our spouses feel hurt.

My DW and I go through this a lot. Sometimes I think we handle it ok, other times we get mad and have some distance for a while. The hardest part is the lack of resolution.

I'm not sure if you want advice, but I have some, so if you don't like it please ignore.

I'm guessing from your post that although frustrated that your DW is taking time on your anniversary for church stuff that you have no intention to try to get her not to participate in the church project. Maybe if you tell her that her decision to participate in the church project on your anniversary hurts you; that's just where you are and you both know it. Tell her that you have no intention of trying to stop her or hold it over her and that you still want to have a nice anniversary. Hopefully that can at least diffuse this situation so you can have a decent anniversary date. It also cuts to the heart of the situation; her actions hurt you. That's not what she meant, just like when we disaffected we didn't mean to hurt our spouses, but that's what happened. Now you can deal with it together. Try to lean on each other, let this bring you closer. Neither of you wants to hurt the other, you are just now in a very difficult situation.

Thanks

I sent her a message today to let her know that while I'm struggling with everything, it wasn't fair of me to project that on to her yesterday. Yeah my feelings are hurt that she's going to spend a few hours on our anniversary with a church thing, but I also know I need to pick my battles better... although this one seems like a really obvious thing you wouldn't do all things considered right now.

Honestly she knows I'm hurt by her doing a church thing on our anniversary - if she didn't already know, she would've told me weeks ago. I told her yesterday it bothers me because we can't talk about it, but she thinks we *can* talk about it as long as we don't talk about why I think it's not true... which leaves literally nothing to talk about really w/ regards to the church.

It sucks and like you I'm just exhausted with this. I spent all this time working on a priesthood thing this morning (started researching it last week and then on another thread a comment about trying to reconstruct a timeline seemed like a worthwhile exercise), and I know she'll never read it. It's just such a weird feeling... she claims that she wants to know if it's true, but she won't talk about it. And when I explain it to her that way, she disagrees.

And onward we go...

My TBM DH has a suggestion. Move the celebration to a neutral day. Sure it isn't celebrating on the anniversary, but that day is now tainted with a fight. By moving the celebration, you start over fresh and not already hurt and angry.

He also commented that you need to learn to say when you are hurt, so she doesn't think you are angry. Angry is something she will react to by being defensive. Hurt, she can handle without as much defensiveness.

Personally, if my spouse had kept secret that he had plans on our anniversary and I had hoped for the full day, I would be hurt. If he had been upfront from the first, then I would not get up hopes or expectations to be dashed. So, you both need to learn some better communication. But by keeping it secret, then dumping on you at the last minute, it makes it feel like she loves the church more than you. But if she had been upfront, then you work around it to have a good celebration.

alas wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 1:38 pm My TBM DH has a suggestion. Move the celebration to a neutral day. Sure it isn't celebrating on the anniversary, but that day is now tainted with a fight. By moving the celebration, you start over fresh and not already hurt and angry.

He also commented that you need to learn to say when you are hurt, so she doesn't think you are angry. Angry is something she will react to by being defensive. Hurt, she can handle without as much defensiveness.

Personally, if my spouse had kept secret that he had plans on our anniversary and I had hoped for the full day, I would be hurt. If he had been upfront from the first, then I would not get up hopes or expectations to be dashed. So, you both need to learn some better communication. But by keeping it secret, then dumping on you at the last minute, it makes it feel like she loves the church more than you. But if she had been upfront, then you work around it to have a good celebration.

Thanks! I'm not sure moving the celebration will go over well at this point although I'm worried about that for the same reason.

I also think at least right now she does not see any difference between me feeling hurt or angry. Right now it's pretty raw (only been about 6-7 weeks since I really brought up my issues with the church), and I think that she views me saying I'm hurt as trying to push an agenda on her and keep her from church stuff.

We'll see... I am really annoyed that the one thing we've been struggling with is now front and center on our anniversary (not to mention it wasn't mentioned until 3 days before it), but I also know I need to figure out another way to work with her on this stuff.

I'd gladly let her spend the entire day at the church event if she'd just sit down and read some stuff with me, but that's not gonna happen.

alas wrote:My TBM DH has a suggestion.

I love it when Mr. alas participates on the board via proxy!


jfro, if I had a dime for every time the church stepped in between Sister Ryder and I, it would be a lot of change. Actually it would be a steady income stream considering the church sleeps between us every night in the form of her church approved regulation underwear.

Sister Ryder and I did a year of marriage counseling. During that time we learned how to fight fair, communicate our feelings, and most importantly how to repair our relationship after a fight. Learning how to turn towards each other and repair was what saved our marriage. The differences of opinion and arguments will always be there. The resentment won't if you learn to repair.

Go back and turn towards her. Take Mr. Alas' suggestion and plan a better day/evening. One where you both can spend 100% of your attention on each other.

While you're in this phase of your faith transition it's important to not let your anger at the church cloud your relationship. It will only push her away into retrenchment. You have to take it slow and make subtle change so she feels safe.

Well I thought I was making progress yesterday but for whatever reason DW did not talk to me much at all last night or this morning. I might bring up possibly moving our anniversary to a better day, but I have a bad feeling that would not go over well... so I have no idea.

I think for me right now I'm not actually changing anything w/ day to day life- I have been inactive for a while but my real research began out of fear of my kid growing up in the church (don't drink or anything like that so outside of no garments since going inactive nothing has changed). So it's still raw as far as that goes, and she knows I'm still studying this while she continues to refuse to talk about what the issues are. That very well might need counseling because we can't talk about it and quite honestly I can not get over the idea that she doesn't even want to know about the very thing she is dedicating her life to. I mean... I am typing up notes here as I research and listen to podcasts, etc and then comparing it to what FAIR says to get both sides - it is absolutely stunning how little is taught compared to reality.

But anyway... just sucks over here. Anniversary is tomorrow and right now it just feels like if we even try to celebrate it, the whole day will feel so forced. She keeps saying it will only be an hour, but it's going to be (likely) a few hours of prep here and then at least 1-2 hours there. And she *knows* she undersold it when she dropped it just 3 days before the anniversary, so I really don't understand why she's so angry at me for being hurt by that.

Sorry to vent so much... I am at a loss right now.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Fri May 04, 2018 12:20 pm Well I thought I was making progress yesterday but for whatever reason DW did not talk to me much at all last night or this morning. I might bring up possibly moving our anniversary to a better day, but I have a bad feeling that would not go over well... so I have no idea.

I think for me right now I'm not actually changing anything w/ day to day life- I have been inactive for a while but my real research began out of fear of my kid growing up in the church (don't drink or anything like that so outside of no garments since going inactive nothing has changed). So it's still raw as far as that goes, and she knows I'm still studying this while she continues to refuse to talk about what the issues are. That very well might need counseling because we can't talk about it and quite honestly I can not get over the idea that she doesn't even want to know about the very thing she is dedicating her life to. I mean... I am typing up notes here as I research and listen to podcasts, etc and then comparing it to what FAIR says to get both sides - it is absolutely stunning how little is taught compared to reality.

But anyway... just sucks over here. Anniversary is tomorrow and right now it just feels like if we even try to celebrate it, the whole day will feel so forced. She keeps saying it will only be an hour, but it's going to be (likely) a few hours of prep here and then at least 1-2 hours there. And she *knows* she undersold it when she dropped it just 3 days before the anniversary, so I really don't understand why she's so angry at me for being hurt by that.

Sorry to vent so much... I am at a loss right now.

One of the common bits of marriage counseling advice is do not try to change your spouse. Now, may I put my "marriage counselor" hat on? I did some marriage counseling kind of stuff, either when a rape victim brought in her husband who was not coping and it was causing marital issues, or with a situation of domestic violence. So, hat on.

Jfro, what is your goal? You keep talking like your main goal here is to get your wife out of the church. Now, if I get that impression with the little bit you are saying here, I am wondering just how your wife feels. If she feels that you are out to change her, that brings up all kind of feelings, like she is not good enough how she is and that your love is conditional, which cause all kinds of hurt and insecurity. So, she is going to be spending all her energy defending herself, leaving no energy for communicating to you how she feels or listening to how you feel.

So, Jfro, I would recommend you look closely at what you really want. Do you want the wife you HAVE, or do you want a nonMormon wife? If you decide you want the wife you have, then quit trying to change her. Because all you are doing is hurting her. If you decide you want the nonMormon wife, then it is only fair to get out of the current marriage.

You say you are not forcing her to give up her religion, but then you turn around and keep trying to make her see how she is devoting her life to something that is not what it claims. Um, that is trying to make her give up her religion.

And as a counselor, I am not usually this confrontive, but in this case, I would be. Because the only way you are going to make this marriage work, is to love the wife you have. You have to FIRST love and accept her for who she is, totally accept that she is staying Mormon. Then, if she ever looks at the Mormon stuff, it will be her choice and not yours.

alas, I think I love you. (Don't worry, I've said this to Jeffret in the past, too.)

I want to support this here:

alas wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 7:12 am And as a counselor, I am not usually this confrontive, but in this case, I would be. Because the only way you are going to make this marriage work, is to love the wife you have. You have to FIRST love and accept her for who she is, totally accept that she is staying Mormon. Then, if she ever looks at the Mormon stuff, it will be her choice and not yours.

The only reason my 18-year-old daughter and I get along is because I do this. She's lesbian/bi, and therefore has a lot to lose by remaining a member. I can see how it hurts her. I can see how it helps her. I can't tell her all that I know or how I perceive things because it threatens her, both by weakening her core beliefs and by making her afraid that I'll reject her. I wish it were different, but it is what it is.

If she were in a doomsday death cult, I'd intervene. But she's not, and I have to concede that at this point she might be making the healthiest decision for herself, as aggravating as it can be and as much as I anticipate having to grieve with her.

By contrast, the greatest source of pain for me as a child was that my parents were only prepared to love and accept the kid they wanted to have instead of the one they actually got. I would take another faith crisis in a heartbeat to have been loved and accepted for who I was.

alas wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 7:12 am Jfro, what is your goal? You keep talking like your main goal here is to get your wife out of the church. Now, if I get that impression with the little bit you are saying here, I am wondering just how your wife feels. If she feels that you are out to change her, that brings up all kind of feelings, like she is not good enough how she is and that your love is conditional, which cause all kinds of hurt and insecurity. So, she is going to be spending all her energy defending herself, leaving no energy for communicating to you how she feels or listening to how you feel.

So, Jfro, I would recommend you look closely at what you really want. Do you want the wife you HAVE, or do you want a nonMormon wife? If you decide you want the wife you have, then quit trying to change her. Because all you are doing is hurting her. If you decide you want the nonMormon wife, then it is only fair to get out of the current marriage

For me, the one and only thing I asked at the beginning is that she would at least go through my issues with me... and from there if she wanted to believe, then that's her right and I would be OK with that. She spent a few minutes skimming the 'Letter For My Wife' (this is not an exaggeration - she admitted that she ran through it quickly during her lunch break one day), hopped onto FAIR and decided that LFMY was a twisted anti-Mormon lie.

So I guess for me my *goal* is to get her to at least go over what bothers me about the issues with the church and actually read the details I feel deceived about. Obviously my hope would be that going over these issues would open her eyes to what I see, but at the end of it I just want her to at least be able to say that she knows all of the issues. If she wants to keep going and believing, that's something that I would be OK with too because at least she knows what the church refuses to tell everyone, but I have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't even want to know about the church you're dedicating so much of your life to.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 10:55 am

alas wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 7:12 am Jfro, what is your goal? You keep talking like your main goal here is to get your wife out of the church. Now, if I get that impression with the little bit you are saying here, I am wondering just how your wife feels. If she feels that you are out to change her, that brings up all kind of feelings, like she is not good enough how she is and that your love is conditional, which cause all kinds of hurt and insecurity. So, she is going to be spending all her energy defending herself, leaving no energy for communicating to you how she feels or listening to how you feel.

So, Jfro, I would recommend you look closely at what you really want. Do you want the wife you HAVE, or do you want a nonMormon wife? If you decide you want the wife you have, then quit trying to change her. Because all you are doing is hurting her. If you decide you want the nonMormon wife, then it is only fair to get out of the current marriage

For me, the one and only thing I asked at the beginning is that she would at least go through my issues with me... and from there if she wanted to believe, then that's her right and I would be OK with that. She spent a few minutes skimming the 'Letter For My Wife' (this is not an exaggeration - she admitted that she ran through it quickly during her lunch break one day), hopped onto FAIR and decided that LFMY was a twisted anti-Mormon lie.

So I guess for me my *goal* is to get her to at least go over what bothers me about the issues with the church and actually read the details I feel deceived about. Obviously my hope would be that going over these issues would open her eyes to what I see, but at the end of it I just want her to at least be able to say that she knows all of the issues. If she wants to keep going and believing, that's something that I would be OK with too because at least she knows what the church refuses to tell everyone, but I have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't even want to know about the church you're dedicating so much of your life to.

I am going to play devil's advocate and take your wife's perspective in a bit, but first let me say, I totally understand how you want her to see what you see, both to understand you and to be on the same page. I would love for my husband to understand me and it would be so nice to be together as far as this whole thing goes. I would give my right arm to have that happen. But there is this nasty thing called reality, and I do not want to destroy my marriage.

So, from your wife's perspective, she read the stuff enough to panic. That is as far as her sanity will allow her to go. If you push her further, she will just hate you.

To her it feels like you led her to the edge of a cliff and now you are saying "jump" and she looks at you and sees injuries from when you jumped off that cliff, and she wonders if you are even going to survive or die from your injuries and you are yelling at her to jump, "why won't you just jump?" And she looks over the cliff, and that is one heck of l long ways down. So, she is backing away from you and that cliff because she knows it is dangerous, and she is quietly waiting to see if you die of your injuries or not, but she KNOWS she is not about to listen to the crazy man who used to be her husband who is telling her to jump. She wants to shake you and ask, "who are you and what did you do to my husband?"

So, how much do you know about cognitive dissonance? You have probably heard the term tossed around here, but let me go a bit deeper. You know what musical dissonance is, right? If you have sensitive ears it hurts and you need to run and get away from it. Well, cognitive dissonance happens when two or more ideas in our head contradict each other. It is upsetting because it threatens what you know about life. Sounds pretty simple, but when I was an undergrad psychology student, we spent 4 weeks, 5 days a week studying it. So, it is actually more complicated than it sounds. X can be our original idea and Y can be something that contradicts it. So, depending on how much you know X is true, and how important X is to you, and how many other factors agree with X, depends on how painful the cognitive dissonance is. How important is X to your identity? Is there a way around Y? The two ideas are kind of weighed in your brain and you choose between them. Sometimes this is conscious thought and sometimes it is automatic.

Once we make the choice however, we no longer are even willing to entertain the evidence. We turn Y into supporting evidence for X. We retrench. Look at the tRump supporters. Or even take a hard look at the Libtards. Let's pick on libtards this time. We have already made up our mind. tRump is evil. So, then the press says maybe Trump deserves a Nobel Peace prize for bring N Korea into talks with South Korea. That causes some cognitive dissonance because we KNOW Trump can't do anything good. So, we sift through the evidence, we remember how tRump and Kim were insulting each other, and we decide that Kim has decided tRump is a weak president and this is all a plot for N Korea to take over the South under his communist dictatorship. Now, not only has tRump not done something good, he has done another something bad. See, we resolved our cognitive dissonance by warping something good into something bad, and tRump is still a disgrace to democracy.

So, your wife read your "anti Mormon" literature. She felt horrible cognitive dissonance. She panicked. She went running for something to fix the pain. She found FAIR, and they warped the "new facts" into "anti Mormon persecution". Now she rejects those "new facts" even more than when she started. It is all proof that the church is true because evil people are persecuting it. Cognitive dissonance resolved and she has retrenched. The more you try to drag her toward that cliff, the deeper she will dig her retrenchment trench.

So, can you accept and fully love her as a TBM? Can you stop trying to change her? I would even suggest you apologize for trying to change her. She feels the pressure that you want her to jump over that cliff and she just can't. She read as much of the "anti Mormon stuff" as she could stomach. To me that is keeping her side of "at least read it". She did and she didn't believe it. It was not the outcome you wanted, and it hurts to be on the other side of this cliff, but that is where you have found yourself. Hurts, I know.

So, from my years on NOM, I have picked up some of what works and what doesn't. We have some suggestions about "go slow." This is because the collective experience of lots of NOMs has proven it to work best. One guy, he went by gospel doctrine teacher, only GDteacher. He went at what even he admitted was a glacial pace. He slowly introduced his wife to the controversial stuff for years before he even told her he had lost his testimony. It took him like 16 years, but he finally got his wife out. No, he set an example of "questioning the church is often a good thing" and she got herself out.

Your wife needs time. First of all to watch and see if you die from those injuries sustained in going over the cliff. So, in two years or so, when you are still not drowning kittens and French frying puppies, and she sees you are still a good person and that you are happy, she may convince herself that going over the cliff is not fatal. Then as you prove that you are a better husband and father than you ever were in the church, she may admit that the view from the cliff is a great view. But for now, she needs time.

Alas,

First I want to make sure I say that you are amazing... seriously - that is an incredible reply to help a total stranger, so thank you for that.

And I think you're right on the other stuff. The cog dis is definitely strong and I know that because another sibling went through this a few years back, that she also knows what that does to family and all that, so of course that also hardened her stance already.

Over the last two days we've talked a bit and were able to do it very calmly and (I think) constructively. I think that from here hopefully we can keep doing that over time (but not frequently or anything) and maybe just be able to understand each other better. It's progress.... and from here I think we're just going to try and go slowly and try to find a good way to handle this w/ kids.

We'll see how it goes but it's definitely a step forward. And you're right - there has to be time to absorb some of that info and then see that it doesn't change who I am in the process before she could even consider that maybe there's anything to it. So time to be patient and understanding and try to deal with my issues on my own without constantly bouncing ideas off her... I'm pretty sure if she ever wants to talk more she'll know I'm open to doing that.

Thank you again - that's a really helpful response and even though I keep feeling like I should delete this thread since it's effectively venting, I think your reply should be there for others going through this to see as it's really important and easy to forget when you're in the middle of it.

alas wrote: ↑Sat May 05, 2018 2:10 pm To her it feels like you led her to the edge of a cliff and now you are saying "jump" and she looks at you and sees injuries from when you jumped off that cliff, and she wonders if you are even going to survive or die from your injuries and you are yelling at her to jump, "why won't you just jump?" And she looks over the cliff, and that is one heck of l long ways down. So, she is backing away from you and that cliff because she knows it is dangerous, and she is quietly waiting to see if you die of your injuries or not, but she KNOWS she is not about to listen to the crazy man who used to be her husband who is telling her to jump. She wants to shake you and ask, "who are you and what did you do to my husband?"

For reasons I won't go into right now, I really needed to read this today. Thanks Alas.

Jfro, please don’t delete it. Venting can be helpful for you and for others. It’s helpful for those of us who, even though our spouses may be looking into things already, still have other family and friends that won’t go near the stuff.

I’m not passing judgment on my sister and I try not to make assumptions, but I honestly think she is LGBTQ. In 30+ years of life, she’s dated one person - for about a year - and no one else. She loves being around other women though, she truly lights up. Instead, she works and does homework for school, but never dates or attends social functions. It’s heartbreaking, even if she’s not LGBTQ and has other, just as valid reasons, for it. She’ll never consider the church being wrong about anything.