NOM

I have avoided SS and EQ for a lot of this year, but have been going more lately because my wife wants me there to help in case my 2 year old needs to go to the bathroom since my wife is usually tied up with her primary presidency calling.

The lesson in SS this week was about the gathering of the lost tribes of Israel. At one point, the teacher read a quote from Joseph F. Smith about how most members of the church were actually literal descendants of Ephraim, and that our patriarchal blessings tell us that. People were then discussing whether our patriarchal blessings tell us our literal lineage (spoiler alert: they're all made up) or whether it's just our adopted lineage. At which point when some pointed back to the quote from Pres. Smith about it being a literal lineage, a brother said he didn't understand how that could be because his kids had blessings saying that they were from different tribes.

This really stumped people. The teacher hemmed and hawed for a second until she said that she could give an answer, but that she would just be making it up. No one ever gave a satisfactory answer (another spoiler alert: it's not real). I don't actually think I'd be spoiling anything, but man, people just couldn't bring themselves to the most obvious answer.

I was sitting in the back and actually audibly chuckled to myself. Maybe it would have been more respectful to just sit in the hall.

I had the same lesson. Perhaps your answer to the question. Would have been, "maybe this was one of the times when Joseph f Smith was talking as a man and not as a prophet?"

I actually didn't stick around for the end. Talk about blessed lineages was not something I really wanted to listen to, not ever, but particularly not this week. It's also too infuriating to have the verses read in the Book of Abraham about blessing Abraham's seed while ignoring the verses a bit earlier in the book about cursing other lineages. But we never actually had a racist doctrine, right? Just a misguided policy? Not exactly the healing balm I was hoping to get from church. (I know. I was at the wrong church for that. I'm actually on the email list for the Universalist Unitarian church that is actually right next door to our LDS chapel, and the response to current event was much, much more apropos.)

shadow wrote:I actually didn't stick around for the end. Talk about blessed lineages was not something I really wanted to listen to, not ever, but particularly not this week. It's also too infuriating to have the verses read in the Book of Abraham about blessing Abraham's seed while ignoring the verses a bit earlier in the book about cursing other lineages.

Blessed lineages never made a lot of sense to me. I suppose it hearkens back to an over-simplified, romantic view of kings and feudalism, but it makes no sense in an religion where the ordinances of salvation are individual and apply to everyone including Jesus Christ who was baptized by John. The idea of "Abraham's seed" seems to cause far more problems than it solves considering that Christians, Muslims, and Jews claim privileges from this genealogy. The rest of the world shrugs as if this makes any difference whatsoever.

I'm from Ephraim. So is my Chinese wife. But her sister isn't even from the house of Israel, she's descended from Japheth. That tells me about all I need to know about the reliability of this particular form of fortune telling.

It seems like the whole 12 Tribes thing is another corner JS painted the church in to.

Perhaps in 1830 enough people still believed in a literal 12 tribes existing the way they did when Jacob (I think) doled it all out to his 12 sons. In today's world does ANYONE still take that literally? That 12 "tribes" are going to come together after 4,000 years? To begin with, there would probably be tens of millions of them, and they're all supposed to descend on Independence, Missouri?

Does anyone who prepares these lesson plans in the COB ever take these things to their conclusions?

I asked an institute teacher if I was a literal descendant of one of the tribes, or if I was part of the so-called 'adoption'. He said I was a literal descendant which I can't quite wrap my head around. Maybe they think anyone who is white is a literal descendant.

The 12 Tribes: one more item pushing down on the shelf.

As a class activity/homework assignment, I would have suggested that each person in the room get their DNA tested and come back with the results. Spoiler alert: you all have 10% neanderthal DNA! Wait, were those the descendants of Cain?

RubinHighlander wrote:As a class activity/homework assignment, I would have suggested that each person in the room get their DNA tested and come back with the results. Spoiler alert: you all have 10% neanderthal DNA! Wait, were those the descendants of Cain?

Hold on, we do not yet have a revelation that Neanderthals are allowed to hold the priesthood.

RubinHighlander wrote:As a class activity/homework assignment, I would have suggested that each person in the room get their DNA tested and come back with the results. Spoiler alert: you all have 10% neanderthal DNA! Wait, were those the descendants of Cain?

That was actually my last straw for sitting through the days lesson. Someone started to try and make and argument that we have DNA from all over so we likely have some Israelite DNA, so we are literal descendants. Just like the First Nations all have hebrew DNA markers, right? From their Lamanite parents?

Spicy McHaggis wrote:Perhaps in 1830 enough people still believed in a literal 12 tribes existing the way they did when Jacob (I think) doled it all out to his 12 sons. In today's world does ANYONE still take that literally? That 12 "tribes" are going to come together after 4,000 years?

Jesus does. Or at least the 3rd Nephi version of him does. He says he's going to visit them in the secret place where God is hiding them.

Corsair wrote:Hold on, we do not yet have a revelation that Neanderthals are allowed to hold the priesthood.

Mind blown. If Brigham believed that death on the spot was the appropriate response to someone with even a drop of the "blood of Cain" how would he feel about a significant percentage of Neanderthal blood?

News flash to Brigham: you are 100% African if you do your genealogy thoroughly.

Hagoth wrote:

Corsair wrote:Hold on, we do not yet have a revelation that Neanderthals are allowed to hold the priesthood.

Mind blown. If Brigham believed that death on the spot was the appropriate response to someone with even a drop of the "blood of Cain" how would he feel about a significant percentage of Neanderthal blood?

News flash to Brigham: you are 100% African if you do your genealogy thoroughly.

Perfect! I would love to see the look on Brig's face when someone told him he came from Africa.

RubinHighlander wrote:As a class activity/homework assignment, I would have suggested that each person in the room get their DNA tested and come back with the results. Spoiler alert: you all have 10% neanderthal DNA! Wait, were those the descendants of Cain?

I think it is actually between 1% and 4% for most Europeans and Asians. From what I understand, as long as you are less than 1/16th (6.25%) Neanderthal DNA you are ok for the Priesthood and Temple.

shadow wrote: People were then discussing whether our patriarchal blessings tell us our literal lineage (spoiler alert: they're all made up) or whether it's just our adopted lineage.

Every person on the message board comes from tribes that were well established before any Bible Stories came into being.