NOM

President Nelson wrote:"I will share with them the importance of us having temple recommends," he said, "that tithing is going to break the cycle of poverty."

So put your shillings on Joseph to win at 10-1 odds. You'll clean up at the payout window.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:09 am

President Nelson wrote:"I will share with them the importance of us having temple recommends," he said, "that tithing is going to break the cycle of poverty."

So put your shillings on Joseph to win at 10-1 odds. You'll clean up at the payout window.

IF their tithing was used to reinvest directly back into the community with projects that either helped to relieve poverty or to deal with its effects, then yes. BUT, if that tithing goes into paying administrative costs, maintaining overly lavish buildings, and sending the remainder to BYU so white kids from Provo can have reduced tuition, then no, hell no. Fuck no.

I am appalled at Nelson's message. His premise is bulls**t.

Tithing leads people into bankruptcy and starvation. There is no way in hell that tithing will break the cycle of poverty. Where is the data? If tithing really broke the cycle, we would see Brazilian members becoming prosperous. But no. Poor people still have trouble making it to church because they can't afford to go.

If anything, tithing sorts out the rich from the poor. It flips the bird to the poor so that the church can spend more of its time on higher ROI members.

Tithing does not bring financial blessings and it never did. Confirmation bias and magical thinking are very much alive and well in tithing rhetoric.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... cycle.html

President Nelson also said tithing can break cycles of poverty in poor nations and families. "We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing."

Victim blaming the poor for being poor because they don’t pay tithing. Nice.

Perfigliano wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:53 am I am appalled at Nelson's message. His premise is bulls**t.

Tithing leads people into bankruptcy and starvation. There is no way in hell that tithing will break the cycle of poverty. Where is the data? If tithing really broke the cycle, we would see Brazilian members becoming prosperous. But no. Poor people still have trouble making it to church because they can't afford to go.

If anything, tithing sorts out the rich from the poor. It flips the bird to the poor so that the church can spend more of its time on higher ROI members.

Amen!

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 am
IF their tithing was used to reinvest directly back into the community with projects that either helped to relieve poverty or to deal with its effects, then yes. BUT, if that tithing goes into paying administrative costs, maintaining overly lavish buildings, and sending the remainder to BYU so white kids from Provo can have reduced tuition, then no, hell no. Frick no.

Another Amen!!

I was a TBM when I saw this clip from John Oliver. Made me shudder even then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRUy982IbA

I'm trying to remember if I truly believed this craziness when I was in. I know they've constantly preached the prosperity gospel, and that "the windows of heaven" would open from paying tithing, but I don't remember any blatant statements like "tithing can break the cycles of poverty." It's easy to use plausible deniability or move the goalposts with "the windows of heaven" BS; But claiming that tithing can break the cycles of poverty should be statistically provable.

Anyone else remember actually believing this drivel?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:12 am Anyone else remember actually believing this drivel?

That and Blacks were fence sitters who white people should not intermarry with (even after the ban was lifted).

And that perhaps the ban was put in place by the Lord, so the white Utah church could concentrate on its base before being in a position to take the gospel to ALL the world.

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

"Shudder"
Brings back bad memories of L. Snow and the Windows of Heaven BS!!!

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:38 am "Shudder"
Brings back bad memories of L. Snow and the Windows of Heaven BS!!!

That is exactly what I was thinking! Maybe they will make a new movie about this trip.

I wonder if they are worried about the amount of tithing receipts in Africa especially since the growth there is exploding. If things continue like this Africa could become a large percentage of the church. The church is stagnant or even shrinking in the richer countries, so the third world countries will probably be asked to step up and fork over more cash.

On another board I was reading that the country of Nigeria has more congregations than any of these countries:

South Korea
New Zealand
Australia
UK
Canada

ETA: The African country is Nigeria. I had it wrong before...

The real and existential problems of many people along Nelson's rock star tour are simply not going to be solved by paying tithing or attending the temple. I am anticipating far too many pictures in the Ensign of Nelson's rictus grin as he shakes hands with people that could not afford to put gas in Nelson's car. But these exciting photo ops and meetings are going to be openly touted at my Stake Conference next month. We will probably experience the passive aggressive shame of being compared to people who can't afford tithing, but pay it anyway. The lazy, well-fed Mormons in Arizona need to get with Nelson's program since those hard working Kenyans are sacrificing almost everything to live as faithful, Utah style Mormons.

oliblish wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:00 am

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:38 am "Shudder"
Brings back bad memories of L. Snow and the Windows of Heaven BS!!!

That is exactly what I was thinking! Maybe they will make a new movie about this trip.

I wonder if they are worried about the amount of tithing receipts in Africa especially since the growth there is exploding. If things continue like this Africa could become a large percentage of the church. The church is stagnant or even shrinking in the richer countries, so the third world countries will probably be asked to step up and fork over more cash.

On another board I was reading that the country of Kenya has more congregations than any of these countries:

South Korea
New Zealand
Australia
UK
Canada

I don't think that is accurate. It looks like as of the end of 2017 there were 47 congregations (branches and wards) in Kenya.
South Korea had 120 (2016)
New Zealand 225 (2016)
Australia 312 (2016)
UK 333 (2016)
and Canada 494 (2016)

-lost

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am

oliblish wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:00 am

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:38 am "Shudder"
Brings back bad memories of L. Snow and the Windows of Heaven BS!!!

That is exactly what I was thinking! Maybe they will make a new movie about this trip.

I wonder if they are worried about the amount of tithing receipts in Africa especially since the growth there is exploding. If things continue like this Africa could become a large percentage of the church. The church is stagnant or even shrinking in the richer countries, so the third world countries will probably be asked to step up and fork over more cash.

On another board I was reading that the country of Kenya has more congregations than any of these countries:

South Korea
New Zealand
Australia
UK
Canada

I don't think that is accurate. It looks like as of the end of 2017 there were 47 congregations (branches and wards) in Kenya.
South Korea had 120 (2016)
New Zealand 225 (2016)
Australia 312 (2016)
UK 333 (2016)
and Canada 494 (2016)

-lost

Sorry about that. I meant to type Nigeria not Kenya. My mistake. Nigeria has 601 wards & branches. Up from 500 in 2016.

This prosperity gospel is pretty much the central message of the BOM: if a person or group follows the commandments they'll be blessed and will prosper; if they don't follow the commandments they'll be cursed and will dwindle into an uncivilized and degenerate state. It's a constantly repeating cycle throughout the BOM. If we observe reality, though, it doesn't conform to that pattern.

It's not at all surprising that Nelson would preach this on his inaugural world tour. He's got to believe it's an important message. Its not surprising that to him principal among the commandments that must be followed would be tithing and temple participation.

He's flat out wrong, of course. These things will not break the cycle of poverty. Reality shows otherwise though reality doesn't intrude much into Nelson"s world. Its too bad he can't break out of his bubble enough to try and really understand things and do something constructive.

Perfigliano wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:53 am If anything, tithing sorts out the rich from the poor.

This is a fine example of how prophetic promises in the LDS church work: by natural selection.

Suppose the prophet says if you eat green vegetables with real intent, you'll be financially stable in the next year. Active Mormons start loading up on broccoli and kale. A year passes.

Most Mormons who were financially stable remain financially stable. They can testify of the truth of the prophet's words.

Most Mormons who weren't financially stable become more financially stable because that's usually what happens when people try, especially if everyone in their wards are looking for ways to fulfill prophecy. They can testify of the truth of the prophet's words.

Some Mormons become less financially stable. Most had internalized the prophet's new rule of good living and therefore blame themselves for not eating enough green vegetables, or not having real intent. They either testify about other people, or silently or publicly vow to do better to meet the conditions.

A few Mormons become less financially stable and also more disillusioned. If they stay active, they keep quiet about their experience because they don't want to rain on others' parades or suffer social consequences. If they don't stay active, nobody hears their story.

Thus, an active, believing Mormon has nothing but confirming evidence that eating green vegetables with real intent brings financial stability.

In sum: a one-off prophetic promise appears to work by dividing those for whom it does work from those for whom it doesn't work, and silencing and ostracizing those for whom it doesn't work so that the remainder can have faith. As a bonus, the promises can be made vague enough that members will "test" them for years until they come to pass. Tender mercies!

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:30 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:12 am Anyone else remember actually believing this drivel?

That and Blacks were fence sitters who white people should not intermarry with (even after the ban was lifted).

And that perhaps the ban was put in place by the Lord, so the white Utah church could concentrate on its base before being in a position to take the gospel to ALL the world.

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

I guess I should have clarified, the specific drivel I was referring to: Did you really believe that paying tithing would make you rich?

I absolutely believed in lots of the other drivel, like fence sitters, etc.

ap1054 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:43 am I was a TBM when I saw this clip from John Oliver. Made me shudder even then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRUy982IbA

A theme I noticed in all of the speakers was formal business attire*. I find that interesting. I also find it interesting that the majority of the examples were from LDS leaders.

The modern church is unwittingly modeled after the Order of Nehors. They're just a lot sneakier about paid ministry than Nehor was.

*One time, I attended a megachurch. The preacher was business casual.

Nothing ends poverty like voluntary poverty.


Wait a second....

ap1054 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:43 am I was a TBM when I saw this clip from John Oliver. Made me shudder even then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRUy982IbA

The exact same thing this made me think of.

Just wish I could have seen it before we gave the church a mortgage worth of tithing. Ergh.

glass shelf wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:54 pm

ap1054 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:43 am I was a TBM when I saw this clip from John Oliver. Made me shudder even then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsRUy982IbA

The exact same thing this made me think of.

Just wish I could have seen it before we gave the church a mortgage worth of tithing. Ergh.

Wow - that’s an interesting juxtaposition between the TV preachers asking for money and the General Conference talks. That last one was horrible - it is incredibly harmful and irresponsible to make people believe if they pay tithing instead of feeding their children miracles will happen and their children will be fed. Sometimes that doesn’t happen, but you never hear those stories in General Conference, do you?

Wealthy white American men in suits have no business guilting poverty-stricken Africans into giving them money.