NOM

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:20 am**

I've been wanting to ask this for a long time, it just seems too weird, but circumstances have arisen that make this more important than passing curiosity.

I'm pretty sure my husband and I are going to have a big argument about garments this week. Maybe he will surprise me, but I doubt it. I'd prefer not to go into details, so I am going to be vague: we've had this simmering problem with his garment tops for four years. The easiest solution is that he simply needs to buy new ones, but he has never done it. Over this period of time I have considered the following: I could just go out and buy him new ones. I could tell him to buy new ones. I could ask him what he thinks the solution is (but I think he'll get bogged down in more complex solutions to the problem than simply buying new ones - this is kind of where we've been for the past few years.)

But this is HIS underwear. Not mine. I am not my husband's mother. I could have solved all of this a long time ago, but I just don't feel like it is my responsibility. And there is no one in real life I can talk to about this.

So, who buys the garments in your family (either now or when you were TBM)?
Does each person buy his/her own?
Is the wife responsible?
Is it an activity you do together? ("Hey, I'm ordering garments, you need anything?")
If your spouse needs new ones, for any reason, do you suggest it?

For the record, I haven't worn garments in several years and have no plans on going back. I'm not sure my garment status is too important in this, other than my husband doesn't think I value them appropriately (which may be a huge part of the problem). Money is not a factor here. I just don't remember the last time he bought garments. (The last time I bought them was in a dozen different sizes and styles when I was pregnant with one of the kids. What a scam.)

It occurs to me as I end this post that I may just have to be "the mom" and fix all of this this week because someone has to do it.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:36 pm**

He probably just doesn't care. The easiest thing to do would be for you to just order some if it bothers you. You can do it online I think with just his Membership #. It's quick and easy and surprisingly cheap.

You can do it here:
https://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores ... Preference

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:46 pm**

A man's underpants are a profanely sacred thing. Most men will not give up their underwear until it is reduced to approximately a dozen loosely coupled underwear molecules of indeterminate non-white color.

I have to agree with GoodBoy and recommend that you simply buy a few for him and quietly remove the offending items. Keep them in a plastic bag in the back of the closet so that if he asks for them you can hand them over. There is no set protocol for who buys temple garments.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:50 pm**

I have historically bought for Spouseman. Then about the same time I stopped doing his emotional labor, I stopped wearing mine. So he's in a similar boat with holey holy underwear. He went down to Wal-Mart and bought some boxers. I don't know if he doesn't know how to buy garments, or if it's solidarity, or if he's really given up on them.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:26 pm**

I guess it comes down to how much you care about his undies. My DW commented to me once that my Gs were starting to look like gauze, so I bought some new ones. We have bought together, and separate, occasionally DW would buy new ones for me if she was going to the distribution center for herself anyway and vice versa.

I would love, to stop wearing them altogether, but things haven't progressed that far yet and so I am in the find excuses to not wear them stage.

Sometimes when I hear others talk about their TBM spouse I am amazed at the sins of commission and omission that they (the TBMs) either do themselves or allow their spouse to do. If you are married to a 110% TBM, not wearing garments under your work clothes when its 118 degrees out in Arizona is almost as bad as armed robbery as a means to supply refreshments for FHE.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:31 pm**

In my household, with garments, when one of us needed them enough that we needed to put in an order, they would start it, and let the other know they were doing so and ask if they wanted to had anything added to the order.

Now that we have moved on, it's a mix. We actually enjoy buying for each other. Id we see something we would like to see the other in, we get it. We also both will buy our own if needed.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:23 pm**

I'm probably missing something, but I'm really not seeing why this is a problem you need to solve. It seems like he could get them if he wanted to bother. I guess if it's important to you but not to him, then maybe it becomes something for you to do. Maybe he really doesn't want to buy them.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:14 pm**

Just go ahead and buy him some. Add them to whatever drawer you keep them in. Problem-solving need not be overly complex unless an underlying pathology regarding change actually exists.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:54 pm**

When the garments become too worn out, simply cut the marks out and throw them out. He will either grow up and buy new, buy something easier to purchase or find himself naked. Now, as a favor to him, because you do love him, tell him what you are going to do. Then simply throw away any that become embarrassingly thin. You are not his mother and should not have to do his shopping.

Posted: **Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:58 pm**

My wife would obviously prefer that I wear the sacred garment of the holy priesthood, but it isn't a hill she is willing to die on. Fortunately for her that after 35+ years of wearing garments i've gotten use to the feel of them. The religiosity associated with them means absolutely nothing to me. The decision to wear them is 100% secular based. I continue to wear them, dare I say, because they are comfortable. I never wear them at night, and rarely when out in the yard working. DW generously buys new ones for me, especially when the crew top collar becomes a disgusting dishwater gray, or if the bottoms show signs of intense fatal skid mark action. DW, on the other hand, obediently wears them 24x7 (even during intimacy)."

(kidding of course)

"Do you wear the sacred garment day and night bla bla temple"
"yes. Yes I do"

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:43 am**

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:46 pm A man's underpants are a profanely sacred thing. Most men will not give up their underwear until it is reduced to approximately a dozen loosely coupled underwear molecules of indeterminate non-white color.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:19 pm**

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:26 pm I would love, to stop wearing them altogether, but things haven't progressed that far yet and so I am in the find excuses to not wear them stage.

Sometimes when I hear others talk about their TBM spouse I am amazed at the sins of commission and omission that they (the TBMs) either do themselves or allow their spouse to do. If you are married to a 110% TBM, not wearing garments under your work clothes when its 118 degrees out in Arizona is almost as bad as armed robbery as a means to supply refreshments for FHE.

slavereeno, you have to be one of my favorite people on this sub. We seem to be in very similar places and I can really relate to most everything you write.

I feel the same as you when people mention having a TBM spouse, but then go on to describe how that spouse is totally cool (or at least indignantly accepting) of things like getting rid of garments, paying tithing on net or increase, or occasionally dropping WoW requirements. My own spouse would go ballistic; world war 3 would commence, and I might just lose my family in the process.

That said I have only worn my garment tops intermittently over the past 6-8 months or so. Maybe longer. I have not mentioned anything to my wife, and she has never noticed. I'm risking a lot by doing this, but I've found that I feel so much more comfortable without them, I hate when I have to put them back on. I would also switch to common boxers except that I'd then be a lot more susceptible to getting caught.

@MerrieMiss,

Maybe your husband is just waiting for them to fall apart so he has a "valid" (in his mind) reason to get rid of them without replacing them?

My wife has been telling me for at least a year to get new garments as several of my pairs are in very sorry shape. I just can't bring myself to give the church any more money, especially for something I hate in the first place. I'm hoping that by the time they really are unusable I'll be in a place to let her know that I don't believe in the "sacred" nature enough to put up with the general discomfort and inconvenience the bring into the equation.

Maybe your husband is in a similar place, but just trying to work things out within his own head, rather than work this out with you. Maybe he won't buy new ones because he's not sure its worth it. Maybe?

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:47 pm**

I think I'm in a similar situation in that my spouse's garments are threadbare. And I'm sure that someone looking closely could see the holes around the neckline through his lovely crisp white shirts. I just don't care. When they get too far gone, he buys more. I just ignore them. Don't know if that helps you. What's weird is that he's a particular guy about his clothes and is very clean. So the fact that he lets his garments get so hole-y has always surprised me but not my problem.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:50 pm**

græy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:19 pm That said I have only worn my garment tops intermittently over the past 6-8 months or so. Maybe longer. I have not mentioned anything to my wife, and she has never noticed. I'm risking a lot by doing this, but I've found that I feel so much more comfortable without them, I hate when I have to put them back on. I would also switch to common boxers except that I'd then be a lot more susceptible to getting caught.

This exactly. I have been skipping the garment top only and have been doing so for (only) about 2 weeks now. DW is damn smart though, and I am sure she knows I have not always been wearing the tops, but has decided not to bring it up. I had forgotten how much I like wearing t-shirts, I was usually opting for a button up since they are more comfy over another shirt.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:58 pm**

Such a common problem! I think my parents had it, too. I can't count the number of times my dad wandered out in his Gs to tell us to go to bed or something, with his tender mercies hanging down through a hole near the Y. Didn't notice or didn't care.

MerrieMiss, I think you should let him let them go bad. Maybe he'll replace them himself if they start restricting movement of his knees or ankles, or if he starts having to tuck them into his socks.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:14 pm**

I appreciate everyone's comments.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:23 pm I'm probably missing something

Yeah, but that's no one's fault but my own. In my attempt to be vague I left out the most important details and the questions I put out there aren't the right ones. I should have posted this a few years back. It isn't the appearance of his garment tops, it's something else.

Like Anon, I don't really care what they look like, it's his problem and he can buy new ones himself. So far as this goes, I'm really tired of how life changed for me after I had kids. Once I stayed at home it was like I slowly became my husband's mother too. We were married seven years before we had kids - and he did tons of stuff for himself (we both did). We both worked full time jobs. And slowly, there's been this creep where I do all the laundry. I make all the meals. I do all the cleaning. I schedule all of the appointments. At our last house I did 95% of the yard work (not kidding, and I enjoyed it). I don't want to make him sound like a bad guy - he isn't, and I've heard non-mormon women say the same thing happened to them - what used to be a fairly even split of household responsibility slowly became all hers once the kids came. It just kind of happened. This is the mental energy that takes all of my time and energy. It reminds me of the essay someone posted here recently, "I want a wife." Shoot, I'd like one too.

And a couple years ago my oldest made it clear he was picking up on these dynamics so I put my foot down. (And my husband was kind of surprised how it happened as well, neither of us planned it.) I still do a lot of things at home. I am there after all. But, I don't wash his athletic wear. I don't fold his clothes. I don't keep track of how much toothpaste or deodorant he has. We have Saturdays or evenings where everyone helps out around the house because we all live there. He makes his own lunches. I don't want my kids thinking that being a man means you get to marry a woman and have a cook, housekeeper and nanny you don't have to pay, just give her room and board.

So anyway, long post to say thanks for the replies, I posted the wrong questions, but I have been curious who takes responsibility for garments. It's been an interesting read!

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:22 pm**

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:14 pm I appreciate everyone's comments.
Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:23 pm I'm probably missing something
Yeah, but that's no one's fault but my own. In my attempt to be vague I left out the most important details and the questions I put out there aren't the right ones. I should have posted this a few years back. It isn't the appearance of his garment tops, it's something else.

Like Anon, I don't really care what they look like, it's his problem and he can buy new ones himself. So far as this goes, I'm really tired of how life changed for me after I had kids. Once I stayed at home it was like I slowly became my husband's mother too. We were married seven years before we had kids - and he did tons of stuff for himself (we both did). We both worked full time jobs. And slowly, there's been this creep where I do all the laundry. I make all the meals. I do all the cleaning. I schedule all of the appointments. At our last house I did 95% of the yard work (not kidding, and I enjoyed it). I don't want to make him sound like a bad guy - he isn't, and I've heard non-mormon women say the same thing happened to them - what used to be a fairly even split of household responsibility slowly became all hers once the kids came. It just kind of happened. This is the mental energy that takes all of my time and energy. It reminds me of the essay someone posted here recently, "I want a wife." Shoot, I'd like one too.

And a couple years ago my oldest made it clear he was picking up on these dynamics so I put my foot down. (And my husband was kind of surprised how it happened as well, neither of us planned it.) I still do a lot of things at home. I am there after all. But, I don't wash his athletic wear. I don't fold his clothes. I don't keep track of how much toothpaste or deodorant he has. We have Saturdays or evenings where everyone helps out around the house because we all live there. He makes his own lunches. I don't want my kids thinking that being a man means you get to marry a woman and have a cook, housekeeper and nanny you don't have to pay, just give her room and board.

So anyway, long post to say thanks for the replies, I posted the wrong questions, but I have been curious who takes responsibility for garments. It's been an interesting read!

I posted the essay a few months back. I completely understand what you mean. It's really hard to balance this stuff, and it's a kind of embedded sexism that is not unique to LDS, but I do think our prescriptive norms exacerbate it.

Case in point, a recent study saying men who do dishes have much better sex more often.

Women who work full time still do 80% of household labor and often 100% of the household's emotional labor.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:47 pm**

Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:22 pm Case in point, a recent study saying men who do dishes have much better sex more often.

I was teasing DW because I saw a study that came to the opposite conclusion. That men who refrained from domestic chores in favor of more manly duties got the better sex more often.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/9 ... study.html

I am most defiantly not trying to pick a sexism fight here. Don't throw bricks at me, I really do think these things should be shared. In fact here's the link to the study in the opposite:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... veals.html

I just think its funny, two studies saying the opposite things.

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:57 pm**

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:14 pm I appreciate everyone's comments.
Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:23 pm I'm probably missing something
Yeah, but that's no one's fault but my own. In my attempt to be vague I left out the most important details and the questions I put out there aren't the right ones. I should have posted this a few years back. It isn't the appearance of his garment tops, it's something else.

Like Anon, I don't really care what they look like, it's his problem and he can buy new ones himself. So far as this goes, I'm really tired of how life changed for me after I had kids. Once I stayed at home it was like I slowly became my husband's mother too. We were married seven years before we had kids - and he did tons of stuff for himself (we both did). We both worked full time jobs. And slowly, there's been this creep where I do all the laundry. I make all the meals. I do all the cleaning. I schedule all of the appointments. At our last house I did 95% of the yard work (not kidding, and I enjoyed it). I don't want to make him sound like a bad guy - he isn't, and I've heard non-mormon women say the same thing happened to them - what used to be a fairly even split of household responsibility slowly became all hers once the kids came. It just kind of happened. This is the mental energy that takes all of my time and energy. It reminds me of the essay someone posted here recently, "I want a wife." Shoot, I'd like one too.

And a couple years ago my oldest made it clear he was picking up on these dynamics so I put my foot down. (And my husband was kind of surprised how it happened as well, neither of us planned it.) I still do a lot of things at home. I am there after all. But, I don't wash his athletic wear. I don't fold his clothes. I don't keep track of how much toothpaste or deodorant he has. We have Saturdays or evenings where everyone helps out around the house because we all live there. He makes his own lunches. I don't want my kids thinking that being a man means you get to marry a woman and have a cook, housekeeper and nanny you don't have to pay, just give her room and board.

So anyway, long post to say thanks for the replies, I posted the wrong questions, but I have been curious who takes responsibility for garments. It's been an interesting read!

Ah! I would have answered this totally differently! I work and we still have this struggle. My spouse is also great and helpful and a hard worker and blah blah. But somehow everything is my job and he helps me with it, I just need to ask..... If there is something he could say to make me madder faster he hasn't found it yet

Posted: **Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:34 pm**

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:47 pm
Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:22 pm Case in point, a recent study saying men who do dishes have much better sex more often.
I was teasing DW because I saw a study that came to the opposite conclusion. That men who refrained from domestic chores in favor of more manly duties got the better sex more often.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/9 ... study.html

I am most defiantly not trying to pick a sexism fight here. Don't throw bricks at me, I really do think these things should be shared. In fact here's the link to the study in the opposite:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... veals.html

I just think its funny, two studies saying the opposite things.

Here's the one In referring to.

https://www.mother.ly/news/for-a-happie ... p_0=761317

It mentions several different studies with related findings.

There's another body of evidence building that marriage isn't very good for women, but it's very good for men. Probably because society has supported women doing the scut work and the emotional work. My thought is that men will need to step up or they will find themselves alone, especially as more women become aware that it not only doesn't have to be this way, but that its healthier for them to not have it be this way.

Gottman institute says men who do emotional labor stay married. Most men have no clue what emotional labor is. However I would posit from my work with relationships, that men doing emotional work are also doing household chores, because emotional work includes the awareness that the chores must be done.

As Merrie Miss said, no one wants to be their spouse's mother in their marriage. At least no one normal does.

NOM

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