NOM

Came across this on Reddit:

According to Elder Anderson, this is what "Ministering" looks like.... "It is not self-righteous, but spiritually courageous."

I was cautiously optimistic that the new "ministering" program would be modeling after giving Christlike service. After Elder Anderson's BYU devotional yesterday, my testimony is that the Church has left Christ and has gone into full cult mode.

Here's the complete list of examples Elder Anderson gave of ministering:

You notice that a roommate spends an inordinate amount of time playing games on an iPhone but rarely engages in conversations relating to gospel topics.

• You are in a conversation with friends and notice that the language being used is edgy and inappropriate.

• You see prescription drugs that you know are not being used properly.

• You notice that someone who once seemed to love to talk about the Book of Mormon now never mentions it.

• You notice a friend who once spoke with faith about the prophet’s counsel, now speaks critically.

• You have a returned missionary roommate who has become very casual in wearing clothing that reflects temple covenants.

• You notice a friend who finds reasons to go places on Sunday other than your ward.

• You have a sense that a friend has started to be dishonest in small things.

• You have a classmate that began the semester very engaged in your religion class but now seems disinterested and disengaged.

• You have a friend who jokes about sacred things.

• You have a friend who came to BYU with the expectation of finding an eternal companion and hasn’t. The discouragement with dating has moved to “God doesn’t love me.”

How do members not see this for what it is????

Depending on the level of crazy in the individual wards and those that are chosen as local "Dear Leaders", these are the kinds of things that will likely get reported back in the quarterly interviews by those that actually attend one. North Korea, much?

Stocking up on popcorn and iced tea. Can't wait to see how this ultimately plays out.

I've still yet to change my original sentiment:

Same lame program, different name.

Yes I'm a cynic, but I'll honestly be shocked if something actually "good" (actual ministering) or "bad" (North Korea) comes of it.

There will be a few crazy "High Elders Quorum" presidents who go all in and make it somewhat miserable, but I think the vast majority will ignore it to their utmost ability, just like "Home Teaching".

A VERY tiny part of me wants some "ministers" to show up on my porch. It will likely be VERY uncomfortable if it happens.

OK, is this for real? Did these actual things come out of Anderson's mouth? Have they been exaggerated? Can we get original text or transcript somewhere?

This is like 1984 stuff.

If these Qs were asked about me:

You notice that a roommate spends an inordinate amount of time playing games on an iPhone but rarely engages in conversations relating to gospel topics. Yes, (but just about trying to engage in gospel topic convos - i am avoiding conflict)
You are in a conversation with friends and notice that the language being used is edgy and inappropriate. yes
You see prescription drugs that you know are not being used properly. No, but I am told this is preferred to a failing testimony.
You notice that someone who once seemed to love to talk about the Book of Mormon now never mentions it. YES
You notice a friend who once spoke with faith about the prophet’s counsel, now speaks critically. YES
You have a returned missionary roommate who has become very casual in wearing clothing that reflects temple covenants. Yes, though without the college context.
You notice a friend who finds reasons to go places on Sunday other than your ward. I do try! but without much success most of the time
You have a sense that a friend has started to be dishonest in small things. Not really, but I may be opening this door when I lie on my next recommend interview!
You have a classmate that began the semester very engaged in your religion class but now seems disinterested and disengaged. Yes, maybe "...began the last couple of years very engaged..." would be more apt
You have a friend who jokes about sacred things. YES
You have a friend who came to BYU with the expectation of finding an eternal companion and hasn’t. The discouragement with dating has moved to “God doesn’t love me.” no, already have the companion I want.

If this is the case I am going to become a topic of conversation in ward council for sure. Maybe this is only for college age peoples?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:31 am Yes I'm a cynic, but I'll honestly be shocked if something actually "good" (actual ministering) or "bad" (North Korea) comes of it.

Well, when you put it that way...

What is ironic (moronic?) is that this type of stuff speaks to the ultra-conservative TBMs who are really trying--and sets them up for the eventual disillusionment.

What Anderson doesn't understand is when you crank up the thumb-screws tighter and tighter, eventually, someone might want to take them off--and the damage is DONE.

The guy walks around with Pollyanna glasses on--he is not in touch with reality. I have seen and had other interactions with him, and I don't understand where he is inside, especially considering his "let's give brother Joseph a break" speech.

Oh, this happened all right. I watched as much as I could take, and that wasn't much. And Hermey just provided a catalogue of some of the more diplomatic things Anderson said. Anderson's list starts at about the 22:30 mark.

https://www.byutv.org/player/0217e320-1 ... devotional

So ministers are the new Mormon Gestapo. Make sure your families are righteous!

Edit: Make sure your families are (self) righteous! FTFM(e)

Despite what Anderson says, this IS self-righteous postering.

What I find interesting is that, with one or two possible exceptions, all of these questions Elder Anderson postulates are based on the premise of members beginning to doubt the church.

He appears to be framing "ministering" as helping wavering members become more solidified in their testimony, activity and obedience.

In other words, Elder Andersen sure seems concerned about what appears to be the frequent occurrence of members beginning to doubt Mormonism.

At least, that is what sticks out to me as undergirding the majority of his examples.

Wow, that's just bonkers. As if members weren't already up in your business enough as it is. Thanks a freakin' lot Elder Anderson.

I just finished listening to this talk - painful, I know, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss an important concept. Well, important to me. I think the real problem with talks like this, and Nelson's priesthood address in the last conference, is that they tell us we need to be better ministers and priesthood holders, but not HOW to go about it. Like Nelson's example of blessing babies better (say that three times fast!) he didn't tell us HOW. Anderson gives us all these examples of what we need to look for, but he sure doesn't go into any detail on HOW to address these problems.

Clearly, by not telling us HOW, they can then default to blaming the members when things go askew. I know there aren't many Hinckley fans on this board, but one thing I appreciated about him was his lack of browbeating the members. He always expressed gratitude. Now, clearly he minimized the larger problems, but at least the contempt for ordinary members was masked a little better during his administration. Now, it seems to have been unleashed.

consiglieri wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:52 am What I find interesting is that, with one or two possible exceptions, all of these questions Elder Anderson postulates are based on the premise of members beginning to doubt the church.

This!

If you listen to the part just before the 22:30 where he lists off these items he says its good to you know, help them move or whatever service tidbit you may do, but the REAL ministering comes when you are policing their testimony.

This stuff is getting crazy as hell to me, this isn't about serving your fellow man as Christ would, its about keeping everybody on the party line.

This could be a lot fun except that it might horrify my dear wife. I may have to make this a bucket list of "new activities to engage in" at church on Sunday.

Don’t worry it is bound to get worse. You have a guy (Nelson) who doesn’t believe that God loves us unconditionally and says so from the pulpit, God only loves us IF we jump through the correct hoopes. He is married to a woman ( Wendy who has the same name and is the same age as his daughters )who writes books about kicking you out of the club if you make a single mistake. He also has the termidity to claim that the policy on exclusion that punishes children for the sins of their parents is a revelation from Christ, Etc. It is bound to get worse as he tries to meet the crisis of declining growth and income by doubling down

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:50 am Oh, this happened all right. I watched as much as I could take, and that wasn't much. And Hermey just provided a catalogue of some of the more diplomatic things Anderson said. Anderson's list starts at about the 22:30 mark.

https://www.byutv.org/player/0217e320-1 ... devotional

So ministers are the new Mormon Gestapo. Make sure your families are righteous!

Edit: Make sure your families are (self) righteous! FTFM(e)

Despite what Anderson says, this IS self-righteous postering.

Gestapo might be just about the right word for this.

It seems that ministering should be about easing people's burdens and providing them support.

But his definition if ministering is keeping the sheep in the pen, quiet and obedient.

I am so glad I am emotionally done with this crap.

From reddit.

Fits.

asa wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:46 am Don’t worry it is bound to get worse. You have a guy (Nelson) who doesn’t believe that God loves us unconditionally and says so from the pulpit, God only loves us IF we jump through the correct hoopes. He is married to a woman ( Wendy who has the same name and is the same age as his daughters )who writes books about kicking you out of the club if you make a single mistake. He also has the termidity to claim that the policy on exclusion that punishes children for the sins of their parents is a revelation from Christ, Etc. It is bound to get worse as he tries to meet the crisis of declining growth and income by doubling down

I'm reminded of the disagreements that arose between Pelagious, a 4th century British monk, Augustine of Hippo. In brief, Augustine taught that in spite of humanity's best efforts, they would be unable to fulfill all of God's commandments on their own because of their fallen state. Salvation therefore required grace.

Pelagious thought that grace was a sort of get out of jail free card that allowed Christians to become lax in their obedience and Christian duty. If everyone was relying on grace, then they would neglect the scrupulous obedience to all commandments. Therefore he taught that everyone DID have the ability to fulfill all of God's commandments, without grace, and were therefore obligated to do so. He promoted a very strict and disciplined form of asceticism as a result.

This seemingly minor difference in theology about the role of grace in individual salvation resulted in two vastly different ways of living.

It's an interesting note that Pelagious was later declared a heretic. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that his way of life was absolutely miserable.

I would like to believe that in general this will be a better program. I am sure some nut jobs will use it as a excuse to measure your devotion to the church, but I think most may feel relieved they just have to keep an eye on a friend. No monthly visits necessary or lame messages.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:50 am So ministers are the new Mormon Gestapo. Make sure your families are righteous!

As I was reading the list it sounded a lot like Scientology auditing!

Enjoying the comments so far.

Personally, I think the whole thing is kind of funny. With every notch that the crazy is ratcheted up, my wife will be pushed closer to the door that leads out. She is more aware of what crazy looks like than she was before, and it is wearing thinner and thinner on her. As for my kids, they're out. This type of thing just reinforces that it was the right decision for each of them.

Here are the rest of the "Ministering" items he listed off:

• You have a sense that a friend may have a problem with pornography.

• You smell alcohol or marijuana in a friend's car.

• Your friends are spending enormous time taking and posting pictures of themselves that move to the edge of immodesty.

• You notice that a friend who once seemed to love to go to the temple is not going.

• You know someone that had a light in his or her eyes returning from their mission but now that light seems to have faded.

• You see a friend's faith being affected by compromised worthiness and needs to repent.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:26 pm

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:50 am So ministers are the new Mormon Gestapo. Make sure your families are righteous!

As I was reading the list it sounded a lot like Scientology auditing!

Actually it is called a "Knowledge Report" or KR.

https://www.mikerindersblog.org/the-knowledge-report/

The Knowledge Report
One of the most abused policies in Scientology is the knowledge report—KR for short. Anyone who’s been in the church and “stepped out of line” has received one. For many, nothing causes more charge (really pisses one off) than getting one of these. Most staff and public have written KR’s. Many have thick ethics folders filled with these jewels.

All Scientologists hate getting KR’s. Nothing messes more with a person’s day than receiving one, and nothing perpetuates the “snitch” mentality within the church than these reports.