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The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:36 am
by Hagoth
My calendar must be broken, because it is obviously 1984.
https://ldschurchtemples.org/statistics/units/
All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:33 am
by Palerider
Well, well.....that church legal department doesn’t have a problem speaking up when they want to do they...almost like revelation.
Too bad the Lord doesn’t speak up that way in the church . At least their con game would seem more believable. Or maybe I'm missing the point here. Maybe the Lord speaks to the Q15 THROUGH the legal department and they are the unsung heroes of the restoration???
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:49 am
by AllieOop
Wow.
Here's an archived copy of what was there on March 3, 2018:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180303214 ... ics/units/
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Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:56 am
by 1smartdodog
Is that not what people do. They quote statistics until those statistics no longer support their position.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:49 am
by FiveFingerMnemonic
Could this merely be that this 3rd party site was linking to church materials that are copywrited?
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:54 am
by Rob4Hope
1smartdodog wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:56 am
Is that not what people do. They quote statistics until those statistics no longer support their position.
I agree. I think they are hiding the fact things are not looking good with numbers--and they don't want to be caught cooking the books.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am
by Corsair
The fact that the explanation for absence is "at the request of the Church Legal Department" looks really weird.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:51 pm
by moksha
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:55 pm
by moksha
Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am
The fact that the explanation for absence is "at the request of the Church Legal Department" looks really weird.
They wish to hide all evidence that the Church has been at war with Eurasia, for legal liability purposes from those lawsuit happy Eurasians.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:24 pm
by dogbite
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:49 am
Could this merely be that this 3rd party site was linking to church materials that are copywrited?
No. Facts and figured can't be Copywrited. Which isn't too say that the church made that claim anyway. Or that the writer s of these sights are mormins in good standing whoo toe the line.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:39 pm
by Hagoth
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:53 pm
by wtfluff
Hmmm.
Hasn't the "Legal Department" contacted the "ldschurchgrowth" folks yet?
Math is evil, don't-cha know?
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:55 am
by IT_Veteran
I wonder if it has less to do with the overall numbers (those are still posted on Mormon newsroom and it's pretty simply math), and more to do with the changes for each congregation. It's pretty plain to see that the church's efforts are focused in areas with a lot of poverty and low levels of access to the wider world. It may also be a problem for people to see that wards/stakes are decreasing in the US (if they actually are) and other areas with higher education/literacy levels. If the church is only creating branches/wards/stakes in those low-education areas, even if they're doing it at a faster rate than the decline elsewhere, they wouldn't want people to see that.
It's much better for them to show that the number of congregations is growing than it is to show everybody where they're growing.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:47 am
by oliblish
IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:55 am
I wonder if it has less to do with the overall numbers (those are still posted on Mormon newsroom and it's pretty simply math), and more to do with the changes for each congregation. It's pretty plain to see that the church's efforts are focused in areas with a lot of poverty and low levels of access to the wider world. It may also be a problem for people to see that wards/stakes are decreasing in the US (if they actually are) and other areas with higher education/literacy levels. If the church is only creating branches/wards/stakes in those low-education areas, even if they're doing it at a faster rate than the decline elsewhere, they wouldn't want people to see that.
It's much better for them to show that the number of congregations is growing than it is to show everybody where they're growing.
You make a good point. In 2017 there was an increase of 202 congregational units (30304 to 30506). Using one of these statistical sites (
http://ldsunitgrowth.blogspot.com/ that is now gone), I counted up how many of these units were in Africa. I never came up with an exact number, but I think it was around 190 IIRC. That means that if you exclude Africa congregational growth was around 12 units.
There is an archive of that site here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180313182 ... gspot.com/
I just now counted up the increase in units in some African countries and came up with:
Nigeria: 89
Ghana: 27
Cote d'Ivoire: 28
Just these three countries account for 144 of the 202 increase worldwide. That is 71% of the world growth in these 3 countries.
I can see why they don't like this information published.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:01 am
by Corsair
oliblish wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:47 am
Nigeria: 89
Ghana: 27
Cote d'Ivoire: 28
Just these three countries account for 144 of the 202 increase worldwide. That is 71% of the world growth in these 3 countries.
I can see why they don't like this information published.
It also feels just a little disengenuous when "wards" and "branches" are combined into a generic count of "units". How does the weekly attendanceof these 89 units compare with 89 average Provo wards? Does Nigeria now have 9 new fully staffed, fully functional stakes with those 89 units? Or are these small, geographcially scattered gatherings still under the management of a mission president assigning young, American elders as branch presidents?
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:16 am
by slavereeno
Factor in too that the church has been making wards and stakes smaller, this was told to me by our SP right after his coordinating council meeting about why stakes were being realigned. Average members required for a stake dropped by 1000 members per stake.
I was told this was being done "To better address the needs of members of wards and stakes" but IMHO it was to inflate unit counts.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm
by RubinHighlander
slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:16 am
I was told this was being done "To better address the needs of members of wards and stakes" but IMHO it was to inflate unit counts.
Evidence of this was talked about on the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics RFM podcast where at one regional conference, Holland touts the COB's big challenge of miraculous amazing growth using the number of new stakes as his evidence (which contradicted the Church stats web site). Then his next conference after that was the attack on Runnels with the "taffy pull" rant. I guess taking the stats off the Web leaves the TBMs and NOMs to take Holland and all the other COBlers at face value now.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:25 pm
by StarbucksMom
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm
Evidence of this was talked about on the Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics RFM podcast where at one regional conference, Holland touts the COB's big challenge of miraculous amazing growth using the number of new stakes as his evidence (which contradicted the Church stats web site). Then his next conference after that was the attack on Runnels with the "taffy pull" rant. I guess taking the stats off the Web leaves the TBMs and NOMs to take Holland and all the other COBlers at face value now.
I have faith that Mormon Leaks will provide the truth going forward.
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:16 pm
by moksha
"Numbers are like the Natural Man; they must be fought against when they sow the seeds of doubt or disobedience."
-- Elder Hezekiah T. Cornpone, Chairman, BYU Math Department
Re: The church goes even more opaque
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:43 pm
by 2bizE
Don’t you find it odd that the Legal department was singled out? They could have just said it was unavailable until further notice, or unavailable by decree from Nelson.
