NOM

Just browsing reddit tonight before bed, and I came across the fact that one of the TBM websites that tracks church statistical data has been shut down by Kirton/McConkie:

https://ldschurchtemples.org/statistics/units/

Hooooly Crap. If they are starting that kind of Orwellian crackdowns on people JUST REPORTING DATA, no wonder everyone is so suspicious of how the church is collecting, interpreting and reporting their own statistics. And it's no wonder that they are going to stop reporting church statistics in conference, while we get the same stupid audit report year after year.

I wonder what this will mean for the larger cumorah project and the ldschurchgrowth blog. I LOVE Matt's blog. For a TBM, he just reports the data accurately, both the good and the bad. It's a very honest statistical analysis of church growth, and for the church to potentially shut it down tells me a great deal of what's really going on. I have a faint hope that they'll leave Matt alone, but for somebody who posts every couple of days, he's been silent since April 1st. April Fool's Day, buddy. You're shut down. I didn't think I'd see the day this quickly, but the decline seems to be real.

When you control the information, well,
You can bend it all you want...

One thing to note is the Church has not published any real, credible financial data for many years. I think the last time they published actual financial statements was in the late 50's if I'm not mistaken. The statistical data presented on the various websites were largely guesswork, based on the faith promoting statistical pablum meted out by the COB every 6 months.

The church has not practiced full financial disclosure to the membership for my entire lifetime. If you had hopes that situation might change in the near future, you will be disappointed.

Funny thing, why was the temple statistical data taken down "at the request of the Church Legal Department" and not at the request of Church Leadership? At least we know who runs the show these days. And it ain't the Trotskyites!

I tried putting on my TBM hat, because I really want to understand how TBMs will interpret this, and I can not come up with a faithful answer to this question: Why would the church want to hide statistical data?

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

That's pretty bleak.

From my own point of view though - is the church really this stupid? Controlling the narrative hasn't worked in the past, so now they're going to...hide more information from it's members?

Doesn't the book that Joseph Smith wrote warn us about groups who run their organizations in secrecy? Looks like he prophesied the future of the church he founded.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:00 pm

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

That's pretty bleak.

From my own point of view though - is the church really this stupid? Controlling the narrative hasn't worked in the past, so now they're going to...hide more information from it's members?

Unfortunately I think the church IS this stupid. Or maybe just tone deaf to the optics they are presenting. The more of this sort of thing goes on, the more the church appears as a faceless, impersonal corporation, and less like a caring, open and honest religious institution. Which leads to further decline of those statistics they diligently try to keep out of the hands of the rank and file.

Maybe a better question would be, Does the church think its membership is that stupid?

Archimedes wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:17 pm Maybe a better question would be, Does the church think its membership is that stupid?

Well, after spending last weekend with my in-laws the answer is yes, yes the membership is that stupid.

(I really feel like I should be more charitable toward my husband's family, but I just can't do it anymore.)

Sadly I think you're right MM. Although I think your in laws represent the hard core fundamentalist-leaning members. As the church becomes more and more entrenched it will just get more difficult for progressive members to remain affiliated.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:00 pm I tried putting on my TBM hat, because I really want to understand how TBMs will interpret this, and I can not come up with a faithful answer to this question: Why would the church want to hide statistical data?

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

That's pretty bleak.

From my own point of view though - is the church really this stupid? Controlling the narrative hasn't worked in the past, so now they're going to...hide more information from it's members?

Putting my TBM hat on, maybe this raw data reporting is critical of the church, so Dallin Oaks' mantra of criticizing the church is wrong, even if the criticism is true, applies to statistics. Near as I can figure.

And here is Matt's blog URL, I'm assuming everyone knows about it. It WAS a great blog.

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.ca

On the front page, Matt also links to the Cumorah project statistical website. It was great too.

Hopefully those sites will not knuckle under to the knuckle draggers of the Church Legal Department.

First Amendment anyone?

In my little area of the kingdom (Alpine Utah) , statistics are rarely if ever discussed. Generally, members are content with what they are fed by corporate. "16 million? Wow! The church is really taking off. The prophecy's are coming true. Now let's move on". My TBM DW, who I consider to be an interesting situational based mix of chapel AND cafeteria Mormon doesn't seem to care. She doesn't ever bring it up and I don't ever push it. She doesn't want to hear about poor member retention, or the number of people who leave the church between high school and a mission. We (NOMS) are, from what I have observed, the only ones who care. (i would also think that satan's spawn, the ex-mormons), woudld also care. I can't speak for everyone, but it makes me feel good when I see the church membership shrink. Maybe DW's fear of negAtive church growth is why she is reticent to talk about it. bottom line: it doesn't pertain to their eternal salvation so it is not WORTH worrying about.

I'm remembering a press conf where DHO insisted they don't hide anything, because Joseph Smith papers on his desk.

Archimedes wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:58 pm One thing to note is the Church has not published any real, credible financial data for many years. I think the last time they published actual financial statements was in the late 50's if I'm not mistaken. The statistical data presented on the various websites were largely guesswork, based on the faith promoting statistical pablum meted out by the COB every 6 months.

The church has not practiced full financial disclosure to the membership for my entire lifetime. If you had hopes that situation might change in the near future, you will be disappointed.

Funny thing, why was the temple statistical data taken down "at the request of the Church Legal Department" and not at the request of Church Leadership? At least we know who runs the show these days. And it ain't the Trotskyites!

Actually the last time it gave a comprehensive financial report was April 1959. The report in the Conference Record ran 9 pages. You can look it up on line. Next year nothing. Look at Michael Quinn’s work and Greg Prince. It is clear they were on the verge of bk and couldn’t meet the GA payroll. So they stopped publishing the data. Henry D Mosley played an important part in the financial catastrophe and was exiled to FL where he died.

Statistics
Church Units
All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

Sort of makes sense. TBMs do not care about statistical information. It is only important to those Church employees tasked with charting tithing trends and forecasts. Information available to non-TBMs might be used to catch the Church in a lie.

TBM don't care about actually analyzing statistics. They are content with what is fed to them down the official pipe. The problem is when neutral people look at those number who don't buy the company story hook, line, and sinker. Those are the ones who look at it in detail.

Just take a look at the trhead discussing the latest year's stats. It doen't take much to see that they are in trouble.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2842&p=37010#p37010

Then you have RFM who had a very involved series of podcasts analyzing how the church is trying to hide slowing growth and redefineing growth to keep people in the dark.

That's not even counting on the completely 3rd party people who look at it and can spot problems. It's a lot easier to keep the NYT from using it against them if the info isn't available.

Any folks on here with a law background? It's odd to see a request by the legal department for that information to be taken off. Is there something wrong with the site that gave legal the opportunity to do something? Is it against the law to take numbers reported by an organization and likewise report and come up with your own ratios?

If there's no good reason, then I agree with a statement above - this does look Orwellian and it's scary.

ap1054 wrote:Any folks on here with a law background? It's odd to see a request by the legal department for that information to be taken off. Is there something wrong with the site that gave legal the opportunity to do something? Is it against the law to take numbers reported by an organization and likewise report and come up with your own ratios?

If there's no good reason, then I agree with a statement above - this does look Orwellian and it's scary.

My thought is the copywrite laws the church uses to force sites to take down leaked handbooks for example. They may consider this data property of bonneville communications or another entity.

IANAL, but I think they haven't got a legal leg to stand on. Church unit information is public, and corporations have no legal right to control aggregations of public information about themselves. A person has a right to privacy that might be applicable, and corporations in the US have a sort of personhood, but the US Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that corporations have no personal privacy rights.

(The church is a "corporate sole," though - a one-person corporation. I wonder if that would change anything.)

Nothing stops some skeevy lawyer at K|M from sending a C&D, and fighting even crap claims costs money.

ap1054 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:38 pm Any folks on here with a law background? It's odd to see a request by the legal department for that information to be taken off. Is there something wrong with the site that gave legal the opportunity to do something? Is it against the law to take numbers reported by an organization and likewise report and come up with your own ratios?

If there's no good reason, then I agree with a statement above - this does look Orwellian and it's scary.

I'm betting there is no legal basis for requiring someone to take the information down. Correct me if I am wrong, but this site is run by TBM's, right? Church legal tells them to take it down. They don't want to make a fuss, so they do. Leadership doesn't have to get their hands dirty and cause a faith crisis. The data is made available publicly. I cannot imagine any legal basis for not allowing someone to aggregate the data.

This is totally crazy. In what PR world does it make sense to do this? And we all know that the PR god is the one running this church.