Nuancing the recommend

[Thoughtful]

Recommend due in June

Garments--

option 1- Just say yes, even though I don't.
Option 2- say yes, I wear them according to the counsel the temple matron gave me. (True)
Option 3- say I can't due to hives and anxiety attacks (true)
Option 4- point out it's creepy for them to ask about underwear

Word of wisdom -

Option 1- just say yes
Option 2- say I drink chai daily for medical reasons (true)

JS/Restoration/Current leaders/ priesthood keys

Option 1- lie
Option 2- say I believe they are flawed humans, doping the best they can according to their beliefs, and I am invested in supporting the church (my local ward).

Tithing -

Option 1- say yes. If pushed on why my donations are 0, I pay directly to SLC via my bill pay account. (True)

Sunday meetings -
Say yes, despite attending about 1 Sunday a month and frequently skipping 2/3 hour


Or

Stop keeping a recommend. Tell everyone I have declined to hold one because of church policies that are unrighteous. Effectively brainwash my kids to not want a temple sealing.


The real question:

With all my nuanced answers, at some point it looks like a bunch of excuses to do whatever I want.

[ap1054]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I personally don't get anything out of the temple and have no interest in going to the temple for the foreseeable future. My kids are young right now (all under 4) and the only thing that would draw me back to the temple is if they're active members 15+ years from now and want to get married there - I'd wanna be there. Crossing my fingers that the church will separate temple sealing from civil marriage in the future. Let folks get married civilly and then go do the temple thing right after.

Forgive me for adding a question to your list Thoughtful, but if I let my recommend lapse for years will it be harder to get one again down the road? Is there a record of this kept at all that leaders can see?

[slavereeno]

Forgive me for adding a question to your list Thoughtful, but if I let my recommend lapse for years will it be harder to get one again down the road? Is there a record of this kept at all that leaders can see?

Yes there is a record of when your temple recommend expired. If its been longer than about 6 months to a year the interview will be longer and will be with the SP and BP not one of his councillors. At least that was the policy in our steak.

[slavereeno]

The real question:

With all my nuanced answers, at some point it looks like a bunch of excuses to do whatever I want.

This.

My oldest may get married in July this year... My recommend expires in July. Can't be real open just yet or proselytize my disaffection. IMHO, the church could prevent a lot of spreading disaffection if they just stopped doing weddings in the temple. Limit it to the sealing ordinance.

[Thoughtful]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I personally don't get anything out of the temple and have no interest in going to the temple for the foreseeable future. My kids are young right now (all under 4) and the only thing that would draw me back to the temple is if they're active members 15+ years from now and want to get married there - I'd wanna be there. Crossing my fingers that the church will separate temple sealing from civil marriage in the future. Let folks get married civilly and then go do the temple thing right after.

Forgive me for adding a question to your list Thoughtful, but if I let my recommend lapse for years will it be harder to get one again down the road? Is there a record of this kept at all that leaders can see?

I think they look more closely at things, but

I have zero interest in attending the temple, but refuse to miss my kids weddings. That's not on the radar yet. I also figure it buys me a little time to not rock the boat while I wait for either my ILs to die or Spousemans shelf to shatter all at once. He won't critically explore anything with his parents alive, I don't think.

The real question:

With all my nuanced answers, at some point it looks like a bunch of excuses to do whatever I want.

This.

My oldest may get married in July this year... My recommend expires in July. Can't be real open just yet or proselytize my disaffection. IMHO, the church could prevent a lot of spreading disaffection if they just stopped doing weddings in the temple. Limit it to the sealing ordinance.

If my kid were getting married I would def renew, not rock the boat at all.

But...I would also make sure kid reads the verbiage of the ceremonies so they know what they are getting into.

[alas]

The real question:

With all my nuanced answers, at some point it looks like a bunch of excuses to do whatever I want.

This.

My oldest may get married in July this year... My recommend expires in July. Can't be real open just yet or proselytize my disaffection. IMHO, the church could prevent a lot of spreading disaffection if they just stopped doing weddings in the temple. Limit it to the sealing ordinance.

I got away with *one* nuanced answer, but trying to do more starts to sound like excuses. I did the one about belief in Joseph Smith and the rest of "prophets" and just told them I have a problem with JS because of poligamy. And if JS was not, then neither are the rest of them. None of my bishops ever wanted to discuss that one, so as far as "restoration" of the gospel, it was "not really". But funny, poligamy was one thing they didn't seem to want to discuss further. Especially when they found I knew church history so much better than they did.

I had similar issues with garments. I really could not wear them. Emotionally they did a real number on my mind because of the abuse. But I NEVER had a bishop that would accept "really for medical and emotional reasons I cannot wear them 24/7." They always pushed for total compliance and I really could not without being suicidal. I told my LDSFS psychologist why and he understood, but apparently would not pass on to my bishop that I really could not allow the LDS church to have ownership of my body and I could not deal with the flashbacks the garments caused.

I would start vocalizing in front of my children that sealings can be done after the wedding if the church would only allow it, and how it is unfair of the church to keep family away from a wedding. Just talk up that point when ever you can.

[slavereeno]

I would start vocalizing in front of my children that sealings can be done after the wedding if the church would only allow it, and how it is unfair of the church to keep family away from a wedding. Just talk up that point when ever you can.

I keep pushing, but I fear I am going too fast still for DW. She has become sympathetic to my concerns, which is a big step in a positive direction for us. Now her mother's health is failing and she has to bear the brunt of that with my ILs. I don't want to be needling her at a time like this, so I am laying low for now. I hope that DS gets temple-hitched before my TR expires, or I may be forced to lie like the church on my TR interview.

[Thoughtful]

I would start vocalizing in front of my children that sealings can be done after the wedding if the church would only allow it, and how it is unfair of the church to keep family away from a wedding. Just talk up that point when ever you can.

I made this point in front of my in-laws the other day. Nephew is marrying a convert and her family is missing the wedding. I made a very sad face and said, "it's really a shame that we don't have the same policy as Europe, where weddings and sealings are separate. It's so devastating to separate parents from their child's major life events."

They didn't say anything, but it was an "aha" look on their faces.

[Red Ryder]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I personally don't get anything out of the temple and have no interest in going to the temple for the foreseeable future. My kids are young right now (all under 4) and the only thing that would draw me back to the temple is if they're active members 15+ years from now and want to get married there - I'd wanna be there. Crossing my fingers that the church will separate temple sealing from civil marriage in the future. Let folks get married civilly and then go do the temple thing right after.

Forgive me for adding a question to your list Thoughtful, but if I let my recommend lapse for years will it be harder to get one again down the road? Is there a record of this kept at all that leaders can see?

Ap1054, I'm you only 14 years later. This December will make 14 years since I went down the rabbit hole. In 2005, the church changed the initiatory and at that point I gave up on having a TR and decided not paying tithing was more beneficial and about a year later my recommend lapsed. I didn't renew. In 2008 my oldest was baptized and my bishop had no objections to a closeted unbeliever doing the baptism without a TR. Fast forward 3 years later my next kid is 8 and the church suddenly changed their policy and now a TR was required to confirm the Holy Ghost. I knew of this change having participated on internet boards that discussed it. I decided to be proactive and went in and got a recommend. I paid a chunk of money towards tithing to get the TR. I've since let it lapse but will probably go back and get another one once my kids are closer to marrying age if needed to attend their weddings. It's a game I'm willing to play.

I have no problems answering the questions with the appropriate answers. If the church can push forward a faithful history, then so can I. If the church can hide it's unsightly deeds, then so can I. In my heart I know I have more integrity than the church ever will. This is demonstrated by the latest cover up that's coming to light.

It's a game I'm willing to play. Nobody here should ever feel less than worthy to go in and answer the appropriate questions to get what you need out of this so called church. The church has used and abused you your whole life. There's nothing wrong with getting what you need in return.

[wtfluff]

Question, somewhat related to RR"s post:

Is "the church" honest in their dealings with their fellow man?

[1smartdodog]

Just say yes to everything with no explanations. If they try to dig deeper just say that is not part of the interview questions.

[Thoughtful]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I personally don't get anything out of the temple and have no interest in going to the temple for the foreseeable future. My kids are young right now (all under 4) and the only thing that would draw me back to the temple is if they're active members 15+ years from now and want to get married there - I'd wanna be there. Crossing my fingers that the church will separate temple sealing from civil marriage in the future. Let folks get married civilly and then go do the temple thing right after.

Forgive me for adding a question to your list Thoughtful, but if I let my recommend lapse for years will it be harder to get one again down the road? Is there a record of this kept at all that leaders can see?

Ap1054, I'm you only 14 years later. This December will make 14 years since I went down the rabbit hole. In 2005, the church changed the initiatory and at that point I gave up on having a TR and decided not paying tithing was more beneficial and about a year later my recommend lapsed. I didn't renew. In 2008 my oldest was baptized and my bishop had no objections to a closeted unbeliever doing the baptism without a TR. Fast forward 3 years later my next kid is 8 and the church suddenly changed their policy and now a TR was required to confirm the Holy Ghost. I knew of this change having participated on internet boards that discussed it. I decided to be proactive and went in and got a recommend. I paid a chunk of money towards tithing to get the TR. I've since let it lapse but will probably go back and get another one once my kids are closer to marrying age if needed to attend their weddings. It's a game I'm willing to play.

I have no problems answering the questions with the appropriate answers. If the church can push forward a faithful history, then so can I. If the church can hide it's unsightly deeds, then so can I. In my heart I know I have more integrity than the church ever will. This is demonstrated by the latest cover up that's coming to light.

It's a game I'm willing to play. Nobody here should ever feel less than worthy to go in and answer the appropriate questions to get what you need out of this so called church. The church has used and abused you your whole life. There's nothing wrong with getting what you need in return.

Someone posted on another forum today that her dad had to pay 10 years back tithing to attend a wedding. Leadership roulette how much is adequate.

[Raylan Givens]

If Greg Prince can do it, you can. I don't listen to MS very often, but I always listen to Dr. Prince.

He must nuance the hell out of his interviews (it helps that he admitted he has no need for the temple).

My DW used to hate it when I came out with a recommend, she said I was lying and it felt dishonest. She is honest to an absolute T.

I am glad we both don't have to worry about that process

[Palerider]

I realized the fraud that the church was after all of my kids had already been through the temple. But my wife was still a believer at the time.

I just couldn't do it even for her sake. When my Bishop hinted that it was time for me to renew my recommend I told him outright I wasn't interested in renewing. He asked me why and being a high priest, I told him I had already discussed it with the SP and wasn't interested in rehashing it with him. So I nipped his power right in the bud.
It was extremely painful for a couple of my kids and made it so I couldn't stand in on blessings and confirmations of my grandkids but I wouldn't have done it even if it had been permitted by the church. Why pretend you have priesthood power from God when He knows you don't? And He knows the church doesn't either so he would know I was enabling or bowing down to a fraud.

The church is so utterly dirty and corrupt when it comes to temple ordinances. They're absolutely no better than the Catholic church that they used to run into the ground all the time for selling indulgences, etc. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Once you realize the ordinances are totally fake you can take away all their power to subjugate. It's like refusing to buy snake oil anymore because you realize it doesn't cure anything. It's totally useless. The truth really does set you free.

Will I miss some of my grandkids weddings? Probably. But it isn't worth it to me to nuance a recommend for that reason. Hec, at this point I'd have to be rebaptised!

That would mean a TON of sucking up and lying. I wouldn't be worth crap to myself and my wife would probably divorce me.

P.S. The church being an institutional liar doesn’t make it alright for me to be a liar too. I want to be better than them. On the other hand, I don't blame someone for doing what they think is right in order to go to their own child's wedding. The church is damned for putting them in that position.

[Corsair]

I just give my bishop and stake president the Yes and No answers they want in the temple rec interview questions. I have been waiting for years for someone to detect that I am simply lying on most of the questions. This is not "nuance" or "carefully worded denials". I am LYING about almost every question in the interview. The only things I am not lying about are things like "Do you live the law of chastity?" since I do remain absolutely faithful to my wonderful wife. But tithing (nope), Word of Wisdom (Team Coffee!), wear the garment (not for years), sustain my leaders (do not), and testimony of the Restoration (not at all) are not commandments I follow or believe in.

The Spirit of Discernment is a colossal failure in my life. Skepticism, critical thinking, and diligent study is far more reliable. I have no faith nor expectation that this new "ministering" program will change this.

[Not Buying It]

It's a game I'm willing to play. Nobody here should ever feel less than worthy to go in and answer the appropriate questions to get what you need out of this so called church. The church has used and abused you your whole life. There's nothing wrong with getting what you need in return.

That’s my philosophy. Don’t let a bunch of random, capricious questions pushed on you by a sham Church get in the way of being at your family’s events. The Church puts you in a crappy situation, lying to them to deal with it is fine by me.

[1smartdodog]

It's a game I'm willing to play. Nobody here should ever feel less than worthy to go in and answer the appropriate questions to get what you need out of this so called church. The church has used and abused you your whole life. There's nothing wrong with getting what you need in return.

That’s my philosophy. Don’t let a bunch of random, capricious questions pushed on you by a sham Church get in the way of being at your family’s events. The Church puts you in a crappy situation, lying to them to deal with it is fine by me.

This is the position I take. How can you be lying when the whole thing is made up. You are just going along to keep the peace.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

For me the mental anguish every time an event comes up is starting to hurt my mental health and well being. I grew up with a Dad that didn't ordain me and parents that didn't attend my temple wedding and it turned out ok. I baptized and confirmed my oldest kid a few years ago and it was the most bizarre interview experience with a bishop I have ever had. He didn't bother with TR questions, he was primarily looking to ensure I wasn't an "anti-mormon". I never answered yes or no to that, I just stated that I was ok with the concept of baptism. I think he is a good man who didn't have any desire to punish me for what must have sensed deep down would be the end of my church membership if he pushed things the way the church wants.

[Mackman]

I second what Pale Rider said , it doesn't matter if you don't tell the truth they don't !

[Ben Davis]

I have no problems answering the questions with the appropriate answers. If the church can push forward a faithful history, then so can I. If the church can hide it's unsightly deeds, then so can I. In my heart I know I have more integrity than the church ever will. This is demonstrated by the latest cover up that's coming to light.

It's a game I'm willing to play. Nobody here should ever feel less than worthy to go in and answer the appropriate questions to get what you need out of this so called church. The church has used and abused you your whole life. There's nothing wrong with getting what you need in return.

I lean this direction, too. For my family this church works the best and I’ve been really satisfied being more engaged this past year. And to be clear this rengagement is, for me, fairly nuanced. I’m happy to have this satisfaction w/o turning off my brain. I say this because there is an achievable balance. I typically think that perfection is a fool’s pursuit.