NOM

As we all know, President Nelson made the announcement in General Conference that high priests would meet with the elders.

This was ballyhooed as revelation from God, and much was made of how this shows God continuing to guide his church by revelation.

It occurred to me that this change is analogous to the discontinuation of stake seventies quorums a few decades ago. I wondered if the same kind of breathless exclamations were made about that change.

What I found was that the discontinuation of the stake seventies quorums was announced by President Ezra Taft Benson in the General Priesthood Session of October 1986 General Conference.

But it was a completely different kind of announcement.

Benson gave a 28-minute talk about the usual kind of thing one hears in General Conference. It is titled, "Godly Characteristics of the Master." He closed his talk with an Amen, and then read a four-minute announcement about the change.

There is no mention of revelation. It is simply a policy change. Here are his words:

Now, brethren, I would like to read to you a statement recently approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve:

“In harmony with the needs of the growth of the Church across the world, the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles have given prayerful consideration to the role of the stake seventies quorums in the Church and have determined to take the following action relative thereto:

“1. The seventies quorums in the stakes of the Church are to be discontinued, and the brethren now serving as seventies in these quorums will be asked to return to membership in the elders quorums of their wards. Stake presidents, in an orderly fashion, may then determine who among such brethren should be ordained to the office of high priest.

“This change does not affect the First Quorum of the Seventy, members of which are all General Authorities of the Church.

“2. Particular emphasis is to be given in stake missions to cooperating with the full-time proselyting missionaries by finding, friendshipping, fellowshipping, and fostering member participation in all missionary activities. A missionary-minded elder or high priest will be called as the stake mission president with his counselors being selected from among the elders or high priests.

“Additional detailed instructions regarding this announcement will be provided local priesthood leaders by letter from the First Presidency.

“At this time, we commend all who have served both past and present as members of stake seventies quorums of the Church and who have so ably given of their time, talents, and resources in spreading forth the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... er?lang=en

Boom. That's it. As I say, while there is mention of "prayerful consideration," there is no mention of revelation. Just a statement that the Q15 "have determined to take the following action."

And there is no entire meeting structured around the change; no repeated and breathless exclamations of how this shows the Lord is still running his church by revelation.

So here is my question.

Why the shift in presentation of what is essentially the same type of priesthood quorum restructuring?

Why in 1986 is it simply a 4-minute statement being read over the pulpit, but in 2018 it becomes sure evidence that God continues to lead his church by revelation?

As a first stab at trying to answer this question, it seems church leaders today may be a bit on the defensive about accusations they don't receive revelation anymore.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think they desperately need this to be seen as revelation. With internet doing so much of revealing the man behind the curtain as it were, they need to up the ante on showmanship to keep the con going. I suppose they also could believe themselves that this was "revelation"

The primary criticism of break off groups such as the snufferites etc, is that the corporate church lacks true authority and they cite as evidence the lack of canonized revelations in the latter days. Thus the church loses members who otherwise believe in JS and the restoration and are devout in many ways. In order to restore some legitimacy regarding this issue, they are attempting to provide a rebranding of what revelation means. Resetting expectations just as they have done with miracles/healings. I don't know if this is intentional or merely a social phenomenon attributed to the mass hallucination they are all a part of.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:46 am The primary criticism of break off groups such as the snufferites etc, is that the corporate church lacks true authority and they cite as evidence the lack of canonized revelations in the latter days. Thus the church loses members who otherwise believe in JS and the restoration and are devout in many ways. In order to restore some legitimacy regarding this issue, they are attempting to provide a rebranding of what revelation means. Resetting expectations just as they have done with miracles/healings. I don't know if this is intentional or merely a social phenomenon attributed to the mass hallucination they are all a part of.

I tend to agree with you on this.

It reminds me of Elder Ballard's unusual choice of words in giving the first talk in General Conference.

He did not simply say Russell Nelson is the prophet of God.

Here is the quote:

As we each sustained President Nelson by our uplifted hands, we stood as witnesses before God and acknowledged that he is President Monson’s rightful successor.

I am not sure I remember language like this being used to refer to a new president.

It seems like rightful succession was on Elder Ballard's mind, though.

Blashyrkh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:54 am New member here. I think that this change in quorum has everything to do with the large number of elder age men leaving the church. This is an attempt to try to have the older men mentor or provide leadership to the younger men. I doubt it will have much affect as there is very little about these older High Priests to look up to.

I tend to agree with you that the real reason behind the change has to do with their not really being enough adult priesthood holders to support the leadership of two quorums in each ward (technically a group and a quorum).

Elder Rasband even tipped his hand in giving his comments when he said he had visited Africa where the high priests meet with the elders because there aren't enough priesthood holders.

Oops!

We should also take into account that this type of revelation is easy to fulfill. No waiting to see if god is really at the helm. Abra kadabra et voila the change occurred. Must be revelation.

It’s the same kind of revelation I get when changing underwear. (It’s blue)

PS. Especially enjoyed the last RFM episode.

Cause the members are hungry for anything resembling revelation from those they sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. It becomes particularly noticeable when they elevate and sustain a new man to the position. And because even with these changes they have very little to show for their revelatory titles.

In some ways, it's a little like when you see a sign that says, "Honest Joe's Auto Sales", you have to question how much Joe has to proclaim it to because otherwise you won't know.

Every now and then the same saltine cracker needs a bit of salt sprinkled on it so that it becomes palpable to the worn out pallet.

Keep chewing!

Tell me why this "Dilbert" comic is somehow not applicable to the "revelations" and change in priesthood organization from last weekend:



Scott Adams is the prophetic voice here. These "revelations" from President Nelson seem like the next step in creating an attitude of lowered expectations in the minds of faithful Mormons. However, LDS leadership wants to keep obedience to leadership held high while not holding prophets, seers, and revelators held to high standards of divine knowledge or inspiration.

I am feeling increasingly insulted and patronized with the attitude that I should feel amazed, inspired, or confident in leadership. Yes, these are fairly big changes in organization. However, I have worked in large corporations and I am not automatically impressed by org chart changes. It's often a desperate sign to non-management employees that this "reorg" is another flailing move by management. This is not some transcendent new idea or doctrine. It's just a new way to organize home teaching ("ministering") and find a classroom for men in the third hour of church.

Let's also note that I still attend my ward and am happy to give the church a chance to show that these are helpful changes to the organization. But, it's not my job to prove my loyalty to them. It's their job to show what a compelling and fulfiling faith it can be. Let's see what they can do.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:49 am Tell me why this "Dilbert" comic is somehow not applicable to the "revelations" and change in priesthood organization from last weekend:

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:46 am The primary criticism of break off groups such as the snufferites etc, is that the corporate church lacks true authority and they cite as evidence the lack of canonized revelations in the latter days. Thus the church loses members who otherwise believe in JS and the restoration and are devout in many ways. In order to restore some legitimacy regarding this issue, they are attempting to provide a rebranding of what revelation means. Resetting expectations just as they have done with miracles/healings. I don't know if this is intentional or merely a social phenomenon attributed to the mass hallucination they are all a part of.

This whole issue is of particular interest to me since I was a 70 when that quorum on a stake level was dissolved . Since I am a high Priest it is deja vue all over again. I was listening to a podcast by Denver Snuffer this morning wherein he bore his witness of being in the presence of Christ and being shown in vision the morning of the resurrection in great detail. The difference between Nelson and Snuffer and what they claim is enormous. No wonder Nelson et al view Snuffer as a potent threat to their very legitimacy. The irony is that it was Nelson that demanded Snuffer's newly called stake president Truman Hunt (-the president of New Skin and highest paid executive in UT $10 million /year - now a mission president ) excommunicate him

Blashyrkh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:54 am New member here. I think that this change in quorum has everything to do with the large number of elder age men leaving the church. This is an attempt to try to have the older men mentor or provide leadership to the younger men. I doubt it will have much affect as there is very little about these older High Priests to look up to.

Hey. I am hurt

asa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:21 pm

Blashyrkh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:54 am New member here. I think that this change in quorum has everything to do with the large number of elder age men leaving the church. This is an attempt to try to have the older men mentor or provide leadership to the younger men. I doubt it will have much affect as there is very little about these older High Priests to look up to.

Hey. I am hurt

I'm a disaffected old guy (62) and I don't attend much anymore, so I won't have much influence one way or the other.

I think there is a desperate need for the church leaders to be relevant. If they are not providing revelations, then what good are they? Why keep them around?

I think the emphasis on revelation was partly to try to keep us old farts from rebelling after being demoted.

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:58 pm I think there is a desperate need for the church leaders to be relevant. If they are not providing revelations, then what good are they? Why keep them around?

Exactly. That attitude strikes fear in them.

Their careful consideration of this change has taken a really long time.

I'm the 90's I lived in the SLC suburbs. At one point they did a combined Melchizedek quorum. My dad was made a HP to be in the presidency of that. They were told then it was a pilot program to try it out. This was in '96 or '97. So the revelation that it was a good idea only took over 20 YEARS!

As far as it being to help keep younger men in line, I can see it backfiring spectacularly. My dad jokes that in HP class, all someone has to do is say "lost ten tribes" and they will all go off from there, filling the whole time with speculation and deep doctrine. Younger people will be even more bored out of their minds with all the new 'wisdom' to enlighten them from the men over twice their age.

Sent from my LG-H740 using Tapatalk

The only reason for quorum meetings is a lame attempt at indoctrination. I've not seen a single quorum EVER discuss business, take minutes, and in any way actually "direct" work. Ths bishop does it all, or the SP, through lame HT efforts that don't accomplish anything.

The whole quorum thing is an example of a long entropy death of motivation, activity, leadership, and cohesion. You ever see the list of "prospective Elders" out there!?

I live in the heartland, and I REMEMBER those long long lists. I also remember those watered down Teachings of the Prophets manual.

I think the change is too little too late. And I don't think the church DARES come out with anything new, or that they want to add to the D&C. The scrutiny would be overwhelming.

Frankly, I think the church is in for serious trouble. I really do.

However, LDS leadership wants to keep obedience to leadership held high while not holding prophets, seers, and revelators held to high standards of divine knowledge or inspiration.

GC has always tried to show how these aged, dignified men are calmly looking at you and speaking the will of the Lord. They set up the conditions so that members listen to their every word and take notes of their talks.

The trouble is that what they talk about 90% of the time is hashed and re-hashed topics. Then the following Sunday, members will get together to talk about what was talked about in GC, trying to find something worth talking about with a topic that has been talked about ad-nauseam in hundreds of meetings before.

Just look at how Nelson closed his talk in the Sunday afternoon session.

"I bless you to raise your voice in testimony, as I do now, that we are engaged in the work of Almighty God! Jesus is the Christ. This is His Church, which He directs through His anointed servants. I so testify"

So with all that is going on in the world, Jesus, over a two day period, directs his servants to combine 2 quorums. I feel sorry for members today.

asa wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:11 pm The irony is that it was Nelson that demanded Snuffer's newly called stake president Truman Hunt (-the president of New Skin and highest paid executive in UT $10 million /year - now a mission president ) excommunicate him

Love it! We can't have that kind of talk in Jesus' church, for crying out loud.