NOM

Background: This is an email one of my friends received from their bishop upon learning of their doubts. He was highly accusatory and blamed them for having doubts.

I can understand and sympathize with your struggles of doubt. This earthly life is a journey of faith and is bumpy for so many reasons, (health, longing for excitement and love, cultures in which we are raised, trials, weariness, and imperfect human interactions/relationships, and our own human frailty, just to mention a few). With all the love in my heart, I do want to caution you to be very careful in the assumptions and paradigms you use to ask questions, judge information, history, and truth.

Just the slightest thing out of context can change the entire meaning of something. An assumption, incorrectly made, can lead to a thousand poor decisions or mis-perceptions. The wrong prescribed eye lens's can distort the clearest pictures. I think there are several questions every human being must ask in its pursuit of God and the most noble truths of Heaven.

1. Have we really examined the full perspective and big picture, what information could we be missing? Are we sure we have the full perspective and truth on an issue?

2. What sources are we evaluating in our pursuit of truth? What are the motivations of those who put out these sources? Even if well intention-ed, what do these sources really know and do they have the full picture?

3. Have we really followed the process set forth by God to learn and know truth? Do we seek murkey down stream waters for truth or the original source of free flowing, cool, mountain waters of revelation?

4. Do we really know the source of our doubts? Is the doubt with the Church? Or perhaps the doubt with our ability to live up to the high and uncomfortable expectations of God?

5. Is there anything in our own life's that maybe causing us to put distance between us and the spirit?

6. Do we place our own human conditions and expectations on coming to know God?

7. If we know truth, are we really willing to put aside all worldly things and seek after His name?

8. Do we let our own insecurities, emotional hurts, and pettiness get in the way of more noble pursuits and honest communication with God?

9. Do we let the imperfections and limitations of humans beings (behaviors and communication) be the lens by which we look at truth?

10. Do we really know the full doctrines of this Church and their amazing implications?

11. Where else will one turn where so much good, nobleness, consistency, integrity, and fruits of truth can be found?

Only each individual seeking for truth can answer these questions honestly and even at that, I am not sure most of us can see accurately the full truth of these questions as it relates to our own self. But the honest answers to these question greatly impact how we hear, perceive, adapt and react to principles of Divine truth.

How would you answer the questions?

The questions are designed to keep you spinning your wheels on this forever. They'll do that no matter what religion you belong to. Replace "Church" with "Watchtower Society" to see this. If pursuit of truth according to these questions would keep you in a false religion, can you really trust them to lead you to truth?

I wouldn't bother answering the questions at all. They're designed to keep you spinning your wheels because they're posed by someone who will always think you haven't done due diligence until you come to his conclusions. I'd control the framing of the debate by going meta, explaining why his questions are faulty and his epistemology is broken. Then, if he couldn't understand what I was getting at (which is likely), I'd disengage.

FWIW, my first impression of the questions is in line with what I think of most things that are church-related: what a load of useless noise.

The questions inherently assume God and his revealed word. That's an unwarranted assumption.

Reuben wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:04 pm The questions are designed to keep you spinning your wheels on this forever. They'll do that no matter what religion you belong to. Replace "Church" with "Watchtower Society" to see this.

(SNIP....)

FWIW, my first impression of the questions is in line with what I think of most things that are church-related: what a load of useless noise.

For the record I agree. These questions automatically assume that Mormonism is the only correct answer and that if you don't get that answer then you are not doing it right or trying hard enough.

dogbite wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:23 pmThe questions inherently assume God and his revealed word. That's an unwarranted assumption.

Totally agree dogbite! My friend who received this email didn't engage with this Bishop and went to the SP to show how condescending these were. My friend ultimately resigned.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:17 pm How would you answer the questions?

This is a joke, right?

Seriously, that's how I would answer the question.

Then I'd take question #1 and dig deep, and ask them if they have the "full perspective" on anything. Have they read and studied all of the church essays, including all of the footnotes? Have they read every word that FAIR as ever published? Have they read "A letter to my wife", the CES letter, etc.? Have they read and studied the Koran? The Bhagavad Gita? (Insert any and all religious texts here, from every religion.)

You can't have the "full perspective" on religion, unless you've studied every one, in depth, which is not humanly possible.

That's my knee-jerk reaction. I'm sure I'll think of something even crazier in after my tiny brain mulls it over a bit...

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:17 pm 1. Have we really examined the full perspective and big picture, what information could we be missing? Are we sure we have the full perspective and truth on an issue?

A full perspective and big picture is likely impossible for a mortal finite being, furthermore it is a mistake to suggest one must have a perfect view before one can come to conclusions. For instance, if a car is racing towards me I can't see the back of it but it'd be a grave mistake to refuse to act because my perspective of the car is not full. Additionally, which person will have a fuller perspective? One who insists that only faith promoting materials are acceptable for gaining perspective? Or someone who is open to examining both faithful and faithless perspectives?

2. What sources are we evaluating in our pursuit of truth? What are the motivations of those who put out these sources? Even if well intention-ed, what do these sources really know and do they have the full picture?

Indeed, one must consider the motivations of those who insist continued belief in a paradigm that demands my time, money, and talents. What do they know? Furthermore, what can they know? Warm fuzzies, shaking jowls, pulpit pounding, or the conviction of the claimer do not knowledge make.

3. Have we really followed the process set forth by God to learn and know truth? Do we seek murkey down stream waters for truth or the original source of free flowing, cool, mountain waters of revelation?

I've encountered many different processes set forth by men that claim they are from god, but god has yet come to me and set out a process for me to follow. You are right about murky downstream sources though, I should discount the teachings of men such as yourself, Joseph Smith, Russel Nelson, or even possibly fictional characters like Nephi or Moroni when they try and tell me about the processes God has set for learning and knowing truth and wait for him to tell me directly.

4. Do we really know the source of our doubts? Is the doubt with the Church? Or perhaps the doubt with our ability to live up to the high and uncomfortable expectations of God?

The source of my doubt is by all indications available to me is that spiritual epistemology the church bases knowledge claims on is unreliable. Nice try suggesting I doubt the truth claims of the church because I'm secretly struggling with sin.

5. Is there anything in our own life's that maybe causing us to put distance between us and the spirit?

Nope, but if it did work as you suggest that just makes the spirit even less reliable as a mechanism for seeking truth if he can be prevented from testifying of truth because of some act or other. Could you imagine a witness in court decrying, "I would tell you if I saw that man commit murder, but the prosecution had coffee at lunch." Some witness eh?

6. Do we place our own human conditions and expectations on coming to know God?

By necessity, as I'm human any interaction I have with a divine being will be within that context and those expectations. Indeed, you do it yourself when you suggest certain things in my human life could be chasing away the spirit and preventing me from finding god. Even if you weren't regurgitating that idea that you heard from other humans, me listening to you would be placing human expectations on experiencing the divine? No?

7. If we know truth, are we really willing to put aside all worldly things and seek after His name?

Begging the question there buddy boy, we've yet to establish Jesus is truth. Setting that aside, I am willing to pursue and act upon truth. Though truth is ill defined, so we'd have to hash that out before we go down this road.

8. Do we let our own insecurities, emotional hurts, and pettiness get in the way of more noble pursuits and honest communication with God?

Insecurities, emotional hurts, and indeed pettiness are part of the human experience. If the divine can only be experienced in the absence of these things then the divine cannot be experienced by humans.

9. Do we let the imperfections and limitations of humans beings (behaviors and communication) be the lens by which we look at truth?

We have no other mechanisms by which to perceive and examine the world. Even your vaunted spirit, and even your understanding of those experiences in the abstract, is filtered by human beings. If we cannot experience the divine through a human lens, then humans are simply incapable of experiencing the divine.

10. Do we really know the full doctrines of this Church and their amazing implications?

Doubtful, of course the doctrines of the church are ill defined and change over the course of decades. If they are amazing or appalling is a matter of perspective.

11. Where else will one turn where so much good, nobleness, consistency, integrity, and fruits of truth can be found?

The church has no unique claim to those things and arguably their claim for some of those is less than other organisations, things like polygamy, bigotry, hiding abuse, misogyny, opacity, leader worship, and worthiness interviews come to mind of the fruits of Mormonism.

Also, this just a fancy version of, "Where will you go?"

Edit: Clean up some typos and grammar. Typing up a post while hurriedly slurping down your prework coffee tends to breed them.

I admire Dravin's post. His thinking and responses to each item are excellent.

Well stated, Dravin. The assumption and presupposition behind virtually everything that I have heard from a leader in the LDS church is simply this: the LDS church is true. These questions are stated in a way to try and put the burden of proof squarely onto the recalcitrant apostate.

Excellent post from RR, and excellent response from Dravin. Thanks to both of you for this thought-provoking dialogue. - Wndr.