NOM

So my progressive SIL who lives on the other side of the country had things get really bad with her local leadership this week. She emailed me that she's quitting her calling and taking a break from church. We've emailed back and forth quite a bit about church, but I never come out and say exactly what I think/believe because she is still a believing member, even if she has a lot of issues with the church - I seem to be the only(?) sympathetic person she has to talk to.

Anyway, I was bold last night and wrote her back that I envy her the break from church, and that I want to take a break and have serious issues with the church, but taking a break would cause too large a rift in my marriage. She wrote back and said someone she knows asked her this: What is that you want that the church isn't providing? And she decided she wants a place where she can belong and fit in, and she thinks a break will give her a fresh start and new perspective.

So then she asked me: What is that you want that the church isn't providing? I'm trying to think of my nuanced response, particularly as I am not completely out to my husband - I kind of feel like it's only fair to be honest with him before another family member.

The trouble is, it's the wrong question for me.

What isn't it providing? It's proving the wrong product, a product I don't want or need. It's like asking what the JWs aren't providing for me. I'm simply not interested in the product. Never have been interested and I doubt I ever will be.

It's like I was given a sweater I didn't want, didn't fit, wasn't the right color, turns out it wasn't even a sweater (but we all pretend it is), it makes me itch, and it's synonymous with my identity and the way people see and understand me and I'm not allowed to change the uniform because I was born with it and never chose to take it off, in fact I kept adding pieces and parts to it and now I'm stuck with a product I never wanted and never asked for in the first place. What can make it better? Nothing, I simply don't want it.

Anyway, I'm tossing this around in my head today and wondering how and what I should reply to her.Part of me wonders if I should be blunt and tell her I simply don't want the church, but I worry I'll cease to be a sympathetic ear. I worry I'm talking to her about it before talking to my husband - but she has asked - she's opened the conversation. I'm kind of stuck.

What is it that you need that the church is not providing? Real spiritual experience. The truth. The real gospel of Jesus Christ, as opposed to "the church of obedience to leaders" or the church of THE Family.

Your SIL is needing social connection, while you seem to want a meaningful religious experience, or different kind of product. Defying what kind of product you do need, then that is what the church is not providing. For me, it is a God who loves his daughters, because this church, the temple ceremony, the missionary and reactivating efforts, even not believing abuse victims shows that the God this church worships does not love his daughters, just sees them as spouses for his sons and breeding stock.

You could just tell her that the way the church presents it gospel or teachings just doesn't work for you. That answers her question without telling her more than you have told your husband.

Enjoyment, truth, salvation, flexibility, trust, equality.

My money back.

This is a really interesting question. I can think of two classes of answers.

First is the neo-faithful response. I want the authorized ordinances of salvation and a path back to Heavenly Father. Technically, this does not need to be much more than baptism, one trip to the temple, along with being kind to each other. That's it. But LDS culture wants to be so much more in your life and that's where MerrieMiss'es itchy sweater gets knitted with all these itchy strands. Some leader in the past thought it looked nice, but it didn't really work for anyone else since then. At no time can you really express suggestions for change. It's largely top down, hierarchical commandments.

The less faithful response would be that church provides a sense of community, purpose, and spirituality. This is earnestly claimed as a nice side effect of being the One True Church, but it's not guaranteed as most of us have experienced. Ideally, church could be a chance to pursue truth and wrestle over existential questions. It could be a chance to serve and love others. A lot of this is advertised in church, but it's largely by being assigned to do service. The biggest questions that anyone wrestles with in a ward is how to staff the Primary.

I know that questions of doctrine and history come up, but the shallow answers are strictly corralled back into "The LDS church is the true church", no matter how the question started. Is there any way to allow for these kinds of difficult questions that still allows for the LDS church to largely continue in it's current form?

An interesting question, for sure. I'm not sure how I would answer that honestly without coming out as full non-believer. I like your sweater analogy, but that might not be the nuanced response you're looking for. Perhaps tell her that right now it feels like an itchy sweater you want to stop wearing, and that you still need to figure out what it would take to remove all the itchiness.

Maybe another way to look at is to change the question: How could the church change its product so that I would want it? Thinking about that question for me, I'm still not sure what changes that would take.

alas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:08 amThe truth.

redjay wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 amtruth

I like the above answers. Honesty would be a good one too. Or it would be nice if the church could provide what it claims to provide, but it can't.

I love the different sweater analogies too. The church is an itchy sweater I was born with. Even after taking the damn thing off, I still can't get the itch to go away!

Once I came to the sadly profound realization it’s all just a mirage, I decided I don’t NEED anything from any church. Life has become better. Now if only eve would partake.....

a LOT...

More Truth
More Agency
More Personal Spiritual Growth
More access to marriages when one does not have a TR
More accountability for top leadership
More equality in the top leadership
More understanding from leadership
Less Spiritual extortion for money
Less middle aged men asking sex questions to my teens in a locked room alone where the sound from the room is masked
Less Shame
Less Toxic belief and teachings about human sexuality
Less Toxic perfectionism / Judgementalism
Less dumb-arse programs to keep me busy doing busy work
Less Conference
Less Time at church on Sunday
Less cleaning the building

That's the short list...

.
The return of all my tithing dollars. That money was taken under false pretenses, and I was enticed to join through deceptive means. I want my money back.

Christian love.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:17 am. . . it's synonymous with my identity and the way people see and understand me and I'm not allowed to change the uniform because I was born with it and never chose to take it off . . .

I think this is a good description. For me, it's not only seen by others as part of my identity, but it has actually shaped my identity in such a way that it doesn't seem to be something that I could take off even if I wanted to. I hope it's not verging too much into body horror to think of the sweater as woven into my skin at this point. It would be quite painful to remove if I decided to try, and I would always have threads under the surface that are simply a part of me.

And, of course, those of us who don't necessarily want to remove the sweater completely find it developing holes. Maybe we pull some undesirable threads and hope that the sweater will still function without them, but it becomes increasingly more difficult to hold it together and make it look as if it's still as good as new so that no one will notice its actual state.

To answer the question, I don't think I really expect much of anything in particular from my church experience at this point, other than providing me with a familiar community and giving me a framework that I can now examine from the inside and from the outside to decide how I want to approach life. And while I find it interesting to see how the organization changes over time, I don't find myself hoping that things will change in particular ways that would improve the experience for me.

You could tell your SIL you have friends (us) that don't attend because they're not keen on the ONE way of thinking and they don't enjoy echo chambes. You could tell her some of your friends would maybe return for even social reasons if their beliefs/nonbeliefs were welcomed. I personally don't fit this category of ever wanting to return but I think it might open her mind a little.

I would like a sincere group of fellow seekers of the truth. The Church, seeks first to maintain itself, and then to seek truth. Frankly, to me it seems the many Church leaders consider several things to be more important than seeking the truth: self preservation, power and/or control over people's lives, political power, etc. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:45 am I would like a sincere group of fellow seekers of the truth. The Church, seeks first to maintain itself, and then to seek truth. Frankly, to me it seems the many Church leaders consider several things to be more important than seeking the truth: self preservation, power and/or control over people's lives, political power, etc. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like it.

I would really like a group of fellow seekers of the truth. I think LDS leaders especially think they HAVE truth. Not only that they have the truth, but that *they* ARE the truth, so no reason to look anywhere but in the mirror.

So, I would really like a group of people with the humility to see that we do not already have all the truth we need, who are anxious to search for truth where ever it is found.

I think Mormon's huge lack of humility stands in the way of Christlike love of fellow man. They do not love others, just want other to turn into Mormon clones. Wanting others to be "just like me" so I will share this "wonderful truth" I have is not love of others, but pure love of self. I want people who accept me for who I am, not want me to be just like them. I want truth, not hive mentality and a whole bunch of clone worker bees who attack and kill any bee not of their hive. Besides, beehives are led by the queen mother, not by a bunch of egotistical drones. Maybe the problem is we got this beehive thing backwards, because the mother bee loves her workers.

What is that you want that the church isn't providing?

A rebirth of wonder.

Now that I'm out I'd only like two things from the COB:

- Refund on all my tithing (keep the fast offerings) so I can have a decent retirement
- Dissolve the corporation and stop enslaving 15m good people

Just tell her you want the truth from the church..and let it roll from there. She will have a lot of questions then..now is the time answer them.

Amen to everything said before me. Also, I want a religion that is empowering, not enslaving.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything written above. What do I want from the church? Truth.

I want to feel like I can read a church book and trust that I'm not only getting half-truths spun to make me react they way they want.

I want to feel like I can be honest with the people around me and not fear losing my friends, my community, and my family.

alas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:08 am The truth.

This. Full stop.